Texas School shooting 19 children and 2 adults murdered

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119111695#Comment_119111695

And THIS is the best that the pro gun lot have to offer.

Embarassing.

BattleCorp

Look, I'm not trying on purpose to be insensitive. I don't enjoy coming on here and being demonised because I own guns.

My point is that you might as well be standing on top of a hill calling for world peace as calling for guns to be banned. Guns have legitimate uses even though some on here don't agree with it.

The best thing that can be hoped is to try to ensure the guns stay in the hands of people who aren't likely to go mental and shoot up a school etc. That's the point I'm making.

Here's what I think could be done.

1. Background checks.
2. All guns only to be bought with a permit.
3. Anybody with a criminal record/mental illness to be disallowed from having a firearm.
4. Cooling off period - should have to wait two weeks for a gun permit.

I don't think it's realistic to have some sort of a psychiatric report. I'd have no problem with it but I don't think it is practical.

Furze99

Mad place altogether, who'd want to live in a society like that. Completely warped thinking.

I suppose if there was some sort of mass shooting of politicians or businessmen, things might move on. But always the soft easy targets that are massacred.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119111805#Comment_119111805

Or just take the guns off the likes of you?

salmocab

I love the cars and alcohol can kill people so why not ban them argument, comparing them with guns is stupid, running someone over or drinking yourself to death is not using those things as intended, shooting someone is using guns as their intended use. I’ve no real issue with sportsmen using/owning guns but this argument is ridiculous guns are a weapon, other things can of course be used as weapons but guns are weapons.

Sudden Valley

I guess all the checks in the world wont stop killers if this is their first crime, or they are willing to wait out a cooling period if they are temporarily suspended from owning a firearm due to medical/mental illness reasons. It is a cultural problem that mostly seems to be concentrated in America and there is no easy way to change a societal problem. At least we wont have Alex Jones coming out saying these unfortunate kids are crisis actors.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119111855#Comment_119111855

Give me a logical reason why you'd do that?

French Toast

Incredibly heartbreaking way to lose a loved one, especially a young child. Entirely innocent, gone forever for no reason, how could you ever make peace with that.

I sadly predict that just as Sandyhook changed nothing, Rodd Elementary will change nothing.

Thoughts and prayers, we must act now, etc. etc.

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119111369#Comment_119111369

Two issues here.

Firstly, the figures for people licensed to carry a gun around on a daily basis in the US who commit crimes is astonishingly low, far, far lower than the general populace (And according to some studies, less than police!). As states have loosened their carriage laws, no significant changes in crime rate have occurred, mainly because people willing to commit crimes aren't caring whether they are carrying their firearm legally. Your assertion is not backed up by facts. Not only do we have figures from various US states to point to this, there is also the case of Czechia, which has its own constitutional right to keep and bear arms and a quarter million of about 7.8 million adults have a license to carry a pistol (with, I would add, normally fewer restrictions than the US: gun free zones aren't really a Czech thing, and foreigners can get a permit, unlike in the US). Consider that next time you go to a stag party in Prague. The presence of firearms on Czech streets has not led to mass bloodshed, indicating that there isn't a direct link. Slovakia is a bit more strict, only 100,000 people are licensed to carry a pistol out of 4.7million adults. Still, though, think of how many people you meet in a day when you visit Bratislava.

Your second assertion, that federal law can prohibit carriage of firearms is also incorrect. The Feds can implement rules on the firearms trade, but cannot pass rules on how and where firearms are carried outside of federal land. See US Supreme Court case "US vs Lopez" (1995) which struck down a federal law prohibiting firearms in schools because the law "neither regulates a commercial activity nor contains a requirement that the possession be connected in any way to interstate commerce." There is a bit of a misconception that because the federal government has supremacy over state law that the federal government can legislate on whatever it wants. The Tenth Amendment is still a thing, States are a separate jurisdiction, and though interpretation of the Commerce Clause has been quite broad over the last century, there are still limits as to what Congress can do. See my earlier discussion on the problems of enforcement when 44 States have their own Constitutional right to firearms which will remain even if the Federal government somehow removes its one.

paul71

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/lixnaw-murder-suicide-there-is-a-hole-in-our-lives-that-will-never-be-filled-41665765.html

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/05/county-cork-father-and-sons-died-in-murder-suicide-coroner-rules

https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2019/03/08/news/more-than-30-murder-suicide-cases-in-ireland-since-2000-1568016/

Of course it does not happen here.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119111265#Comment_119111265

The reason for target shooting is the exact same as the reason for hurling, or boxing, or motorsport. The fact you don't see the point, to be honest, is of absolutely no relevance to anyone other than yourself.

Gun ownership In Ireland is nothing like ownership in America. America is messed up, and I honestly don't know if it could be fixed unless voluntary.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119111265#Comment_119111265

There are a few hundred suicides in Ireland each year. I don't have the exact number of suicide by firearms. But it's a minority. Hanging is most common. What impact do you think banning firearms would have on the suicide rate? If those people, did not have access to a firearm, they would still have access a means to commit suicide. A much more readily accessed means.

Ireland has an incredibly low murder rate. We are very lucky. Maybe 10% involve firearms, which is single digits. And they are mostly gangland related. So not legally held firearms, and not going to be affected my banning firearms. There has been some incidents or murder/suicide in the home. It's awful to hear about. But again these things happen with or without firearms. People stab spouses, suffocate children, etc. Knives are not the issue either. The people who do this are unwell, and if they decide they are doing something, it's very hard to prevent that.

It's entirely unrelated to a school shooting.

BattleCorp

You are wasting your breath there Mellor.

rogber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119110854#Comment_119110854

The power of marketing and bad taste.

Just look at McDonald's.

Miadhc

The state of this freak

paul71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119111892#Comment_119111892

A fight in a family in a home with no guns most often will lead to broken bones and regret at most. In a house with a shotgun it can and does have a very different outcome.

I think hurling has hand Zero deaths in the last 100 years (might be wrong), basketball certainly Zero, motorsport (actually another stupid sport).

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119111957#Comment_119111957

Utterly off topic but sadly a young girl died recently following an accidental blow to the head during a camogie game

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119111285#Comment_119111285

Do you have a reference for that? Genuinely curious.

I can understand that there is a success rate associated with certain methods over others. But it doesn't see right that the suicide rate increases equally across the household. In Ireland firearms are locked in safes, i'm not suggest that only the owner can ever access it, but the fact it would be a lot harder for a teenage child to access should be reflected in the stats.

I've a rough idea of the prevalence of suicide. It's about 1 in 10,000. (500 total a year). About 30 with firearms, and given there about 300k firearms (6%), there seems to be almost a direct parallel in the numbers. Really struggle to see where 8x could come from.

Ham_Sandwich

The idea that theres guns in america I still cant get my head around it what do you need guns for??????

BorneTobyWilde

NRA members would not die for their right to bear arms, but they will let other peoples children die for their right to bear arms, it's a sacrifice they're willing to make.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119111805#Comment_119111805

You're doing what the gun control lobby does though, arguing against the most extreme position. Which the gun lobby then turns into a wedge and prevents even basic background checks from being brought in.

Loosening or tightening rules will take a while to have an effect. Same as how the flow of guns over and back across the border took a little while. Changing carry rules/laws doesn't change the sheer amount of guns that are flowing around.

salmocab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119112084#Comment_119112084

I sometimes see the there’s already lots of guns so this isn’t practical anyway argument. It might take decades before any good is seen but at least it’s the right road. Nothing will change anyway because they just don’t care enough about others. This is a waste of time they’ll continue to think their rights were written by god himself and not some men who couldn’t in fact see the future.

seamus

@Manic Moran wrote:

Firstly, the figures for people licensed to carry a gun around on a daily basis in the US who commit crimes is astonishingly low

That's misdirection, of course. Because I never asserted that people who open carry guns committed a particularly large number of crimes. The point is that ordinary citizens being permitted to carry weapons (openly or otherwise), in public, without a stated purpose and without having to show any kind of evidence that they are permitted to do so, is absolutely, off-the-wall, batshit crazy.

Imagine they were machetes. And people could carry them on their front, back or belt, fully visible, just walking down a busy street filled with people, and the police would have no power to stop and ask them questions.

Insane. And it is this kind of blasé permissiveness fuels the idea of guns as fashion accessories, personal statements of machismo. As everyday, household items that can and should be wielded at any time. That there is nothing at all strange about a young man rushing into a shop on his 18th birthday and walking out with fully operable, lethal guns. No questions asked.

If someone doesn't see how utterly moronic that is, then they're beyond help.

Your second assertion, that federal law can prohibit carriage of firearms is also incorrect.

Repealing the 2nd Amendement would give the federal government a lot more power to force control over the sales and movement of firearms within the United States. It is incorrect to state otherwise.

paul71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119111998#Comment_119111998

Now that you mention that I do recall the recent funeral, very sad.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119111957#Comment_119111957

There was a few hurling deaths over the years including one very recently

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119112183#Comment_119112183

Kyle Rittenhouse wasn't even 18 when his Mom took him to Kenosha, where he open carried his AR-15 prior to shooting protestors. Open Carrying at 17. Nice, eh? No consequences for Mom either. Open Carry's a farce, serious compensation going on. It benefits no one. Go back to the basement to play Call of Duty. Or, go volunteer in Ukraine to shoot RuSSians if you really must get your jollies this way.

seamus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119112004#Comment_119112004

That 8x figure is in the United States to be fair, I went through it a few months ago so I don't have the exact source from then.

But here's a similar one that puts it at anywhere between 3x and 12x:

https://jech.bmj.com/content/58/10/841

It's probably less here because of our storage requirements, but nevertheless the only non-media knowledge I have of people being killed by weapons is suicide. And I know a couple of armed Gardai :)

McFly85

America feels too far gone for any real systemic change. They have had 27 school shootings this year and about 250 overall. It has become part of life in the US and seemingly an accepted cost of gun ownership.

Guns are synonymous with freedom in the US, and I have spoken to some Americans on holiday here not so long ago who had a ridiculous sounding arsenal at home because he was convinced the day would come where he would have to defend his property from foreign invaders or the US government. Stuff I found mad altogether but I think I understood it more when I had been there a couple of times where you could see the hyper nationalist propaganda almost everywhere.

So I couldn’t imagine their feeling on guns will ever really change without a cultural reset.

freshpopcorn

Certain Americian citizens are cracked pots when it comes to guns. You'd have ones in the area this shooting happend boasting about there new purchase this afternoon nearly.

Politician's don't care they just want votes and guns get them. All I see them wittering on about is how saying gay in front of children is damaging.

shesty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119112244#Comment_119112244

This is an interesting read. And that figure you reference is quoted in there, with the sources listed at the end of the article, comprehensively.

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/11/26/world/us-gun-culture-world-comparison-intl-cmd/index.html

The statistics speak for themselves. Only they are longer than 280 characters, won't fit in a Tweet, and nobody wants to read or hear them, so they won't get listened to.

The US is out on its own in this one. It can't change unless it wants to, and enough people clearly don't want to, so it seems they will have to just live with these atrocities.I hope it's worth it for them.

Overheal

Sorry your kids died but it’s a personal responsibility issue lololol

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/laura-ingraham-agrees-with-guest-who-puts-onus-on-parents-of-murdered-schoolchildren-guest-tells-them-its-your-responsibility/

“What I advocate a lot – because I get a lot of messages from parents – it’s the parents. It’s your responsibility where you’re send your children to school. You have to know now after these shootings – and every week there’s a shooting, whether it’s at a school or in a supermarket – that you need to check where your kids go to school. You need to go back to school and see. Is there a single point of entry? Do you have guards at the school? I got a message tonight that made me feel kinda good from someone. They told me, “Thanks.” They thanked me because they listened to me and they took their kid out of public school and put them in a private school because a lot of these private schools, they take security way more serious. So parents, it’s your responsibility where you bring your children. And you have to know.” Ingraham responded by saying, “Andrew is exactly right