Court advice -summons (motor offence)

dangerman1990

Hi, just looking for some general advise and idea of what I am facing..

caught going through red light (amber but i wont argue it) with no license with me at the time (fully licensed driver)

did not produce license at station my own fault i genuinely just forgot about it ( again i know it was stupid) bu was aware i was going to receive fine , received then fixed penalty notice with information if i did not pay fine etc i would end up in court, went to local station with said FPN and asked if i needed to do anything else regarding license now (it was for both and mentioned both going through red light and not producing license) Garda said no once paid all is fine ect, went and paid fine (which needed to be done with license) this was oct 2021 , this weekend received knock at home address (i was not home) members of family where told i was to go to court this week to court x at x time and it was a msg from garda X (i remembered the guards name as it was unusual at the time) called station etc asking what it was about to be sure and was told it was for not producing license to which i advised i had done so when i received my FPN.

i have kept my receipt from paying the fine which i will bring with me to court of course (as well as license)

i assume the case is because i didn't produce in the first place but to be honest it doesn't make sense to me as the FPN mentioned i wouldn't need to attend court once paid up.

any ideas how it may go down in court for me?

thanks

Gadgie

Did you not receive a paper copy of the court summons, detailing the offence you are accused of and the date and time of your court appearance? I am not a lawyer, but going by the Citizens Information website, it sounds like you haven't been served correctly.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/criminal_law/criminal_trial/summons.html

I think you need to speak to a solicitor ASAP. If your court appearance is tomorrow morning, you may find one at the courthouse who can advise you on whether or not you need to show up to answer this charge.

dangerman1990

The fixed penalty notice mentioned a court date etc if I hadn’t paid it by a deadline which I paid, I did call the fixed penalty notice landline as I had paid this so wasn’t sure why I was to be in court, the office hasn’t taken any of my calls this week when I’ve phoned the station but was told by an office to go in to court on the day in question (today) and to be honest I’d rather go in than not show up as I’d imagine not showing would be a lot worse. I just don’t understand why having paid the fixed penalty notice for the offence mentioned on it that I am still due in court, according to fixed penalty landline it was a split fine which means I was fined for 1 of the 2 offences and at that stage the Summons for not producing was automated anyways. Which doesn’t sound right to me at all but then I have no idea as I haven’t had an issue like this before..

Gadgie

You still should have received a paper copy of the summons detailing the charge, and it should have been served at least seven days before the court date, according to the link I posted above. If you were only verbally notified at the weekend, it sounds like you haven't been served correctly, so the judge should strike out the case.

You really should speak to a solicitor before attending court, and outline the facts to them. They will be able to advise on the best course of action. Let us know how you get on. Good luck!

dangerman1990

Thanks appreciate your help here will let you know how I get on!

dangerman1990

case adjourned as there was no judge avaialble today.. back in october, spoke to a solicitor who advised once I bring the license on the court date it will be struck out , we shall see !!

coylemj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119116471#Comment_119116471

That is correct, it happens all the time in the District Court that people show up with licence and/or insurance when they forgot to produce it at the Garda Station.

But you should still have received a paper summons, it doesn't make sense that you never received a paper summons, yet the case was called in court today. Was your case called i.e. did they announce 'Garda Murphy vs. Joe Soap (you)' or did the clerk simply announce that all cases were adjourned?

dangerman1990

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119117127#Comment_119117127

Genuinely never received a summons, only ever received the Fixed penalty notice (which stated I would be in court if I did not pay the fine) which I paid. the case was listed today amongst approx. another 60 odd hearings outside the court room , all of the cases had been adjourned as the judge was unavailable.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119117127#Comment_119117127

Some judges get annoyed if the documents are first produced to the guard when the case is called as it wastes time. They expect that contact will have been made beforehand and the guard shown the documents. When the case is called the guard can tell the court immediately that they have seen the documents and they are in order. This usually save the defence from taking the stand and swearing in etc.

dangerman1990

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119121229#Comment_119121229

thanks,

I had called te station a couple times since sunday when recieved the knock on the door from the Guards, 3 calls to be told said gaurd was in later only for the last call to be she was not infact in today, then when called back next day was advised she was not in until friday (today) so i have until october to get in touch with her i suppose lol. I will drop down / call to speak to this Guard again over the weekend :)

coylemj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119121229#Comment_119121229

You know that, I know that. Most people don't. I'd wager that there are people out there who would consider talking to the Garda (in advance of the case being called) to be a form of witness tampering.

But, as the OP clearly knows, the time to do it is before the date of the court case.

JimmyCorkhill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119115016#Comment_119115016

Just reading that Citizens Information piece you quoted. It says the summons needs to mention the time, date & location of the alleged offence.

I can understand date & location, but is time not something very precise? Surely they dont put the time of the offence on a summons?

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119176447#Comment_119176447

The summons needn't include the time. A summons is only a device to get a person into court and is only required to contain general information as to the offence. The time may have to be given at hearing.

Order 38 of the District Court Rules.

1.(1) Subject to the provisions of paragraph (3), in cases of summary jurisdiction no variance between the complaint and the evidence adduced in support thereof, as to the time at which the offence or cause of complaint is stated to have been committed or to have arisen, shall be deemed material, provided that such information or complaint was in fact made within the time limited by law for making the same; nor shall any variance between the complaint and the evidence adduced in support thereof, as to the place in which the offence or cause of complaint is stated to have been committed or to have arisen, be deemed material, provided that the said offence or cause of complaint was committed or arose within the jurisdiction of the Judge by whom the case is being heard, or that, the accused resides or in the case of an offence was arrested within such jurisdiction. In any such case the Court may amend the summons, warrant or other document by which the proceedings were originated and proceed to hear and determine the matter.

Defects

(2) Subject to the provisions of paragraph (3), no objection shall be taken or allowed on the ground of a defect in substance or in form or an omission in the summons, warrant or other document by which the proceedings were originated, or of any variance between any such document and the evidence adduced on the part of the prosecutor at the hearing of the case in summary proceedings or in proceedings in the Court relating to an indictable offence, but the Court may amend any such summons, warrant or other document, or proceed in the matter as though no such defect, omission or variance had existed.

Court’s discretion

(3) Provided, however, that if in the opinion of the Court the variance, defect or omission is one which has misled or prejudiced the accused or which might affect the merits of the case, it may refuse to make any such amendment and may dismiss the complaint either without prejudice to its being again made, or on the merits, as the Court thinks fit; or if it makes such amendment, it may upon such terms as it thinks fit adjourn the proceedings to any future day at the same time or at any other place.

coylemj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119176447#Comment_119176447

They would need to include the time only if it was material to the alleged offence. For example, parking in a clearway, driving in a bus lane, found on a licensed premised after hours etc. All of which are typically only offences during certain times of the day.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119182758#Comment_119182758

Even at that, even if the time was material it would not invalidate the summons. Once a person is in court all that matters is that evidence of the time is given. It must be given because it is part of the actus reus of the offence.

PalLimerick

Get a solicitor produce your licence in court. Matter finished. Not at all serious.