Military conscription, cowardice, and refugees.

Montage of Feck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119144898#Comment_119144898

There are no requirements for woman to stay, but men who leave are breaking the laws of their country.

Montage of Feck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119144027#Comment_119144027

Plenty examples of pacifist who did their duty while remaining true to their beliefs, roles such as medics, intelligence, civil defense etc.. Although I would make a distinction between a war of defense and one of aggression.

kowloon

A lot of people say they'd take a bullet for their country while simultaneously saying they hate 90% of the people in it. Conscription is expensive in peacetime.

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119144027#Comment_119144027

Pacifism is not incompatible with conscription or wartime service

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmond_Doss

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_W._Bennett_%28conscientious_objector%29

I had such a person in my own unit. Medic, flat refused to carry a firearm. Said he felt he didn’t have the moral right to take another life.

We found a spot for him in the base hospital, swapped him for another medic without such qualms. Nice guy.

Of course, there is always the possibility of civil defense work. A nation at war has a lot to concern itself with beyond sustaining the military. Farming, for example.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119145040#Comment_119145040

Here is a thread about Ukraine and poor Jimmy thinks the naval service checking for fish and a Garda on domestic violence call puts us on a par with Ukraine. The lads you mention do a job that has risks. That’s their job like firemen or asbestos removers. As a nation we have no business praising or criticizing Ukraine. It exists at a level of courage and military competence way beyond anything the people of this country collectively as a nation are capable of.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119145546#Comment_119145546

I don't think the nature of wars and the reasons they are fought has changed too much at all. The point is that regardless of what you think as an individual, you will be swept up in national fervour. In ancient times in Ireland and elsewhere, you had a duty to help defend your local kingship and kindred. Nothing has changed, we now do our duty to our state. That is where our loyalty lies/ should lie. In the case of Ukrainian men here of eligible service age and condition, they should doing just that - not draft dodging.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119145992#Comment_119145992

Pacifism is not incompatible with conscription or wartime service

I didn't say that it was.. however, it is a reason as to why men might avoid such service. Rather than the automatic presumption of cowardice that tends to be projected in threads such as these.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119145899#Comment_119145899

And I would point out that in most cases, wars of aggression are promoted as being justified to those from that particular nation. People tend to view Vietnam as a war of aggression now, but for the first few years of the conflict, it was seen/portrayed in a very different light. Same with WW2 from a German perspective, they were countering the unfair treatment coming from Versailles, but to others, it was under very different circumstances.

And while there are plenty of pacifists "who did their duty", there's plenty who did their duty to themselves and their beliefs by avoiding conscription or enduring prison time as a result of their refusals.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119148304#Comment_119148304

I don't think the nature of wars and the reasons they are fought has changed too much at all. The point is that regardless of what you think as an individual, you will be swept up in national fervour. 

Since WW2 western culture has discouraged that people are swept up in any kind of national fervour... because look how both Germany and Japan responded to their own wars initially. It's no different from the defence of "I was just following orders". Socially, we have been encouraged to think for ourselves as individuals, not be drawn into mob thinking..

And I disagree in any case. Conscription invalidates the belief in a national fervour, otherwise, why employ it, forcing men to fight?

In ancient times in Ireland and elsewhere, you had a duty to help defend your local kingship and kindred. Nothing has changed, we now do our duty to our state. That is where our loyalty lies/ should lie. In the case of Ukrainian men here of eligible service age and condition, they should doing just that - not draft dodging.

Fair enough, I appreciate your pov... although in ancient times, most people weren't warriors nor expected to fight as warriors in wars. Their skills/professions were valuable, so they rarely faced any serious negatives when the neighbouring tribe won. Except for the extreme tribal groups like the Zulus who wiped everyone out when they won. The point being that conscription based on ages wasn't a thing from ancient times, nor was there any concept of nationality or national service. Even tribal service was a very fluid concept in most instances, nor was there any real ultimate authority which could demand your service as a given (punishing those who refused). That's a relatively recent (only a few hundred years) change in the way countries and their populations operate.

I don't believe we have a duty to the State, unless you feel that your state deserves that protection.. that whatever might come after would be so much worse.. but in the case of Ukraine, I suspect many people feel that protecting the state wasn't worth their lives. Can't fault them for that. I wouldn't defend the Ukrainian State as it existed before the war.. I'm not even sure about protecting the Irish State as it exists today.

Potatoeman

I’m not sure, on one hand there are valid reasons to not want to fight but on the other if too many go this route then it’s not sustainable. You can still carry out other duties. It’s not sustainable for the entire population to migrate and there is a food crisis on the horizon. Peoples attitudes will shift in the next year.