The grant needs to go!

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119156114#Comment_119156114

Spoke like a true fella happy to pull the ladder up. Awesome stuff.

Got the grant. Spend years telling everyone what a great deal he got sold the car for same he paid.

You'd make an awful politician. Because you'd get thrown out throwing more inflation drivers on top of people during inflation. But sure look here we are.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119155694#Comment_119155694

Kinda like how those moving to Diesels a decade ago got the chape tax while everyone with cars older than 2008 got shafted...the majority of which were petrol drivers.

liamog

The grant is taxpayer's money, and at the moment is not providing good value to the taxpayer. It is important that the money is used to get the best benefit for the country as a whole. There are no issues with getting buyers for any of the EVs on the market at the moment, and it is unlikely that there would be issues if the grant was removed. The money would be better used in 1. expanding public charging and 2. reducing the carbon intensity of the electrical grid.

I think the reason the grants still exist is to make sure enough manufacturers are selling vehicles in Ireland instead of other EU states, as a manufacturer they have no reason to care about selling EVs in Ireland vs any other EU country, either way they are going to reach their emission targets.

As a state we have our own targets to reduce CO2 emissions, private transportation is the easiest segment for us to target as we don't have a large industrial base to decarbonise and agriculture is difficult.

unkel

That's an interesting and alternative take on it, liamog. I'd say you are not wrong if our leaders really are as clever / tuned in as you reckon they are.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119147111#Comment_119147111

The thing is, the “premium” brands are plagued with problems.

BMW i4’s braking down. VW software so bad, my 25 year old speak and spell functions better! Porsche having their Taycans back for updates etc

The funny thing is that Asian cars are currently built as good as the Germans and many German fanboys are losing their minds over this. They just can’t comprehend that the legacy “premium” car makers are being matched elsewhere and in some cases exceeded.

Customer Service from the German brands is atrocious and one just needs to look at the threads in this forum for evidence.

Thank God for Tesla, Kia, Hyundai moving the automotive industries towards EV and forcing the “Premium” brands to take notice.

unkel

Korean cars are the best built cars in the world and have been for a good few years. Although you wouldn't class them as "premium", but that might come.

Most of our electronics are made in China, including "premium" phones such as the Apple iPhone 14 max pro gold XL or whatever their flagshap is called now 😁 Higher end Chinese cars will be regarded as premium in the same way as iPhones in a few years time.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119164757#Comment_119164757

Samsung are Korean.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119164855#Comment_119164855

So? Apple are American. Yet most of the Samsung and Apple phones are made in China.

eagerv

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119164627#Comment_119164627

I have always hated the term 'Premium' cars, it's just a marketing term by certain manufacturers and then believed by the media and the common people.🙂

Of course, there are expensive and not so expensive cars...

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119164974#Comment_119164974

I completely agree with you. It’s highlighted in my posts as a certain poster (which I quoted 😉) has been spamming the Tesla thread quoting bmw as premium branding while the same bmw thread had owners left on the side of the road with no way home 🤣

unkel

Agree, it is largely meaningless. VAG making a cheap FWD diesel Skoda econobox, then putting in a nice looking interior and sticking on an Audi badge and up the price by €10k and all of a sudden it's a premium car? Right.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119164980#Comment_119164980

I remember BMW owners used to go on about the hidden tool kit in the boot lid and how it was great because you could tune up the engine yourself

That's not why the kit was there, it's because the engines were such sh*tboxes that they were guaranteed to give up on a country road in the middle of nowhere 😂

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119164959#Comment_119164959

Actually they manufacture in about 6 different countries the majority made in Vietnam. But ... Sure look.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119165646#Comment_119165646

I remember buying BMW’s and the first thing I check was if the complete took kit was there. It was an indication to the OCD’ness of the owner 🤣🤣

PaulJoseph22

The BMW hate continues, I've-owned several BMW’s as did my parents and never had any major issues, never got left on the road….. and neither I nor my family are ‘common’ and it not me thats spamming re: Tesla but the other way around….

We had a bad experience I was venting my anger about this particular “shi*box” ( a term I see used above) but we’re over it now as we have got rid and wont ever be returning to that poor quality brand.

unkel

No BMW hate from most posters here. If I am a fanboi of any make, it would be BMW. Have had a load of them myself (probably more than all other makes combined), all petrol, never any serious issues.

Recent BMWs, particularly the diesels, have had a lot of problems though...

mfceiling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119166997#Comment_119166997

We bought a 520d new in 2007. After a month the flywheel went. Car was taken away to be fixed. Rang the garage after a week and they didn't know where the car was. Eventually got it back. It used to blow bulbs every single week. The opening rear tailgate window stopped working after a year. The flat tyre sensor used to pop up every week (wheels were fine). After 50k the clutch, turbo and flywheel packed up (car was well minded and serviced). It was a piece of junk.

Bro in law has a 151 X5 which has been in the garage more than a little. Had to get a full replacement rear suspension.

People have it in their head that it's a "premium" brand. That's the problem. It's all in their head.

The Korean cars are now being built to incredibly high standards but some people will still look down their noses at them!!

ELM327

My opinion:

Remove the grant. Zero rate EVs for VRT. (We can dream can't we?)

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119167938#Comment_119167938

ffs, thats disgraceful!

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119168252#Comment_119168252

That 520d still had the old "good" engine in it. The major problems only started with its successor, the notorious N47 engine that ate timing chains for breakfast. And of course many diesel cars have gone up in fire in the last decade or two, a lot of them BMWs.

Mr Q

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119168228#Comment_119168228

That would be a good idea but they would never do it. It would be the start of the end of VRT with the percentage of EV sales going up

SomeGuyCalledMi

I agree with removing the 5k grant for EVs. Also increase VRT on new high co2 ice vehicles, nothing wrong with adding 20k to the price of a range rover.

Money should be spent improving walking and cycling infrastructure in towns and cities first and foremost. Give people an option other than buying an EV. More bikes = fewer cars. 30k speed limit in towns so kids can cycle to school with dyeing.

Check out youtube channel "not just bikes" to see the future I dream of.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119170479#Comment_119170479

I've seen his channel and there's some very good content in there, but one thing that really stuck with me was the video about the Dutch town planning system and how it's designed to promote walking and cycling

It's worth bearing in mind it took 30 years of deliberate effort for the Dutch to be where they are today, and that's with a comparatively sensible and capable government

By contrast, we're still waiting on the DART extension out west and the Metro North. If the Irish government today said they were going to totally refocus all transport planning towards walking and cycling infrastructure then I'm afraid to say that in 30 years we'd probably have nothing more than a few cycle lanes in Dublin city

Where I'm going with this is that we need to severely curtail our current carbon emissions by 2030 and be neutral by 2050. So we need to be realistic about what will be achieved in that time

To me, the prospect of replacing the vast majority of vehicle journeys with EVs by 2030 seems feasible and will take a big chunk out of current emissions. If we continue to increase the use of renewables that takes a bigger chunk out of emissions

At that point it would make sense to start focusing in on shortening commutes and providing realistic alternatives to driving, and by the time that infrastructure has been rolled out then many of the EVs in use will be getting towards the end of their lifetime and can be recycled and not replaced in some cases

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119170479#Comment_119170479

All that will achieve is an EV sold somewhere else in Europe to achieve fleet targets instead of here. Without significant demolition and redevelopment of existing houses we're still going to have the suburban sprawl, transit orientated development is absolutely the way forwards but it's extremely difficult to retrofit.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119173026#Comment_119173026

Why would removing the grant cause EVs to be sold elsewhere? Demand massively exceeds supply and, given the lower running costs and cache of being environmental conscious not to mention being able to look down your nose at the dinosaurs still driving ICEs, that's not going to change if grant is removed.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119175032#Comment_119175032

You've said it yourself, demand massively exceeds supply. Given that fact the manufacturer will clearly prioritise the market with the highest margin. Why sell an ID.3 with a margin of 2% in Poland if you can sell one in Ireland with a margin of 10%. Manufacturers will chase the market with highest margins, that will be achieved by selling in the country with highest sale price plus any subsidies. I don't believe demand is elastic enough to remove the grant + VRT reduction and maintain the same level of consumer sales.

AndrewJRenko

It's crazy that we're giving grants to people with middle and upper incomes to buy new cars, while the bike-to-work scheme limit of €1500 is just at the barest entry level for a cargo bike, and is only available to employed people, and only of significant benefit to higher rate tax payers.

The most environmentally friendly car is the one you already have. We don't need different cars on the road, we need fewer cars on the road.

innrain

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119177732#Comment_119177732

It is in the name. You need a workplace to go to in order to avail of the "bike-to-work" scheme. I wonder who pays all the money for the grants. Is it not the middle income earners? The grants are in place to nudge a prospective diesel buyer towards EV. Without it they would buy the diesel and drive 5k a year and spew all the noxes and sooth onto the cyclists who are the firsts to breathe behind the exaust.

We do need less cars on the road but I'd say first ask for proper cycling lanes a bit separated from the 16ft high /12tonnes buses. Ask for a proper public transport, integrated and environmentally friendly. Ask for taller buildings and increased population density, hence reducing the need to travel from afar. When all these are in place an still too many cars on the road, then start punishing those who use a car to go to work and pay taxes to make up grants.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119177732#Comment_119177732

It's a common misconception that the grants only benefit middle and upper income people who buy new cars. The only way to increase the supply of 2nd hand EVs in Ireland is to increase the number of new EVs purchased an reduce the cost of importing used cars. The purchase grant and VRT reduction reduce the cost of a new purchase, the VRT reduction on 2nd hand imports helps with import costs.

Many anti-ev people think that cars are sent direct to scrap yard after the first owner, instead they are sold to another owner, this operates like a chain with new cars resulting in the replacement of a much older car that has left the fleet (either through end of life or destruction due to damage). Car purchasing is more like hermit crabs. Every single person in that chain benefits from the grants that were applied at the initial purchase.

We absolutely need different cars on the road to reduce the direct tailpipe emissions, there are excellent examples from around Europe where the imposition of a clean air zones results in increases in active transport due to the much better environment.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119177945#Comment_119177945

Agreed. My extended family are of various wealths, trades, states of life and skills. Some, like myself, are able to afford new/newish EVs. Others are in the cycle I was in of buying cheap cars (few hundred quid) until they broke and then repeat. Bangernomics. In order for those cheap cars to be EVs in 5+ years time, someone needs to buy them now. The first leaf and - lesser extent- zoe gave cheap EVs a bad name, but the kona, Ioniq, Zoe40 etc will make great cheap cars in a couple more years. The market is inflated right now for all cars but especially Evs given the supply constraints. Once the market settles back to normal there will be plenty of interest in a 5-10k EV 10 year old with 300km range.

slave1

Incentives need a blanket approach, to introduce means tests etc will just not make them practical, it's like the recent couple of hundred off our electricity bill, it went to everyone. It is not economically viable to manage Incentives with restrictions. Same for everyone.

Said it time and time again, look at Norway, no means testing, same for everyone.

€5k is nothing compared to some countries where up to 50% of the car was tax deductible for average PAYE worker

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119177925#Comment_119177925

Yes, I'm aware of the name of the scheme. From a policy point of view, the question remains as to why the State would ONLY incentivise cyclists to cycle to work, when it seems quite happy to incentivise middle/higher income earners to zip to work and to school and to the pub and to football and to visit granny. There is no basis for the many restrictions on the BTW scheme by comparision to the EV scheme.

If we want to stop people buying diesels, then maybe we should be using the stick instead of the carrot.

Maybe the money going to EV grants should be going for those proper cycle lanes and proper public transport you mention instead?

BTW, motorists don't have a monopoly on going to work and paying taxes. Lots of people go to work and pay taxes on a bike or on the bus or on the train. And taxes don't just come from people going to work. Taxes come from all kinds of activity, including people spending, people drinking.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119177945#Comment_119177945

I'm aware of how supply chains work, but if we want to subsidise second hand EVs, would could do that more directly, and more broadly perhaps than subsidising new vehicles. The trickle-down effect from new to second hand is very diluted and very delayed. It is not an effective mechanism.

We absolutely need fewer cars on the road.

UID0

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119177945#Comment_119177945

New car buyers tend to be either companies (where no grant is available) or upper/middle income buyers. There are very few lower income people who can afford to buy a new car, so it is primarily upper/middle income people who benefit from the grant.

I don't know how many of the new EVs registered are company purchases or taxi purchases where the SEAI consumer grant doesn't apply. Changes to the grant won't change those purchases.

The supply of EVs in the country doesn't match the types of cars that people are purchasing. Smaller vehicles are not being replaced by EVs. Class A1 & B1 cars are 15% of the new petrol/diesel/hybrid sales, but are only 6% of the new EV sales. The grant should be changed to try to increase the numbers of the smaller EVs sold. The average daily distance travelled by vehicles in this country is in the order of 60-70km. This will be lower in cars that spend most/all of the time in the city, where there are a significant number of vehicles that travel less than 30km per day. Those buying second hand cars who have this usage profile will find it hard, as most of the second hand EVs will be larger, longer range, more luxurious vehicles. A buyer who looks for a Micra or a Yaris is going to find it hard to get an EV of the same size second hand. In class H1 (SUV) about 10% of new registrations were EV, but in class B1 (Mini Standard) less than 4% were EVs.

While I would be in favour of the implementation of clean air zones in larger towns and cities, and would even like to see EVs being discouraged from driving into cities, I don't see how it would be acceptable politically (or even morally) when there isn't a supply of suitable vehicles. It would just see city cars being replaced by SUVs and large cars.

liamog

I'm aware of how supply chains work, but if we want to subsidise second hand EVs, would could do that more directly, and more broadly perhaps than subsidising new vehicles. The trickle-down effect from new to second hand is very diluted and very delayed. It is not an effective mechanism.

How would you implement such a subsidy, and where are these 2nd hand vehicles going to come from?

liamog

New car buyers tend to be either companies (where no grant is available) or upper/middle income buyers. There are very few lower income people who can afford to buy a new car, so it is primarily upper/middle income people who benefit from the grant.

The benefit of the initial grant extends to the rest of the ownership chain in 2 ways,

1. There is an EV in the marketplace that wouldn't of been there if the 1st owner had bought an ICEV instead
2. The price of the 2nd hand car is lower due to the pass through of the grant

The supply of EVs in the country doesn't match the types of cars that people are purchasing. Smaller vehicles are not being replaced by EVs. Class A1 & B1 cars are 15% of the new petrol/diesel/hybrid sales, but are only 6% of the new EV sales. 

For the A1 class you only have Renault Zoe's and Fiat 500s, for B1 it's only the Opel Corsa or Peugeot 208. The lack of sales in those segments is more down to the lack of available models. Changes to the Irish grant system aren't going to have an impact on worldwide manufacturers to see them refocus their engineering efforts on releasing small EVs instead of large ones.

innrain

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119178435#Comment_119178435

Yes, I'm aware of the name of the scheme. From a policy point of view, the question remains as to why the State would ONLY incentivise cyclists to cycle to work,

Because a big chunk of car traffic is due to commuters driving to work. It is a very easy way to target those who think of getting a bike similarly with annual tax saver bus ticket. A scheme easy to implement, trace and fool with big return for little effort. By the time you saved 100 you pay that as VAT for the bike so overall the budget doesn't suffer. What other alternative would be?

There is no basis for the many restrictions on the BTW scheme by comparision to the EV scheme.

Pretty sure to be able to purchase a new EV, so to qualify for the EV grant you need to be in a form of employment. Unless you picked the right numbers on Saturday in which case who cares :)

Maybe the money going to EV grants should be going for those proper cycle lanes and proper public transport you mention instead?

It is not instead it should be along with. Money for proper public transport, housing etc is way bigger than the 5k*8000EVs sold last year. AN it needs to be consistent along the years. We definitely can't keep building one story houses and cycle to work. In the last year several of my work colleagues bought houses 60-80 km from the workplace because they couldn't afford something local. These guys will not use the bike to work scheme in a 100 years.

If we want to stop people buying diesels, then maybe we should be using the stick instead of the carrot.

From educational point of view it is poor form to start with the stick. Especially when the "clean diesel" was pushed by you as a better alternative to petrol. And you know what, should you use the stick today, people with less means would suffer. As already said by others EV grants are working 2 ways. One is bringing lower prices into the car pool, and the second creates a competitive market in the wider EU context. Of course at some point they will go. they will be tapered or reduced. They are in existence for some time and because the sales double every year the gov would need to make sure they have the means to sustain this.

UID0

There are smaller EVs available in other markets that haven't been brought here. Examples are the VW e-Up and the Smart forTwo were available in electric. They were both available in the UK, but weren't available here. The Dacia Spring is available in the rest of the EU, but not here. The Zoe is available in Germany with a smaller battery, but only the larger, more expensive version is available here. These aren't engineering effort decisions, they are decisions on how to maximise their profit. The grant should provide as much value as possible for the Irish taxpayer, and the C-segment and SUVs don't require a grant in order to sell every vehicle they have available. The grant money would, in my opinion, be better spent on reducing the carbon intensity of our electrical network, improving the public charging infrastructure or improving public/active transport.

slave1

So the issue isn't the grant itself, just the way the entire pool of money is divvied out?

I think the grant is a coarse but effective tool, it could be reduced and motor tax abolished, tolls abolished etc which would benefit all including second hand purchasers.

From a macro economic perspective it will all end up the same though....

liamog

the C-segment and SUVs don't require a grant in order to sell every vehicle they have available. The grant money would, in my opinion, be better spent on reducing the carbon intensity of our electrical network, improving the public charging infrastructure or improving public/active transport.

In a non supply constrained world I'd agree with you, you'd increase the level of EV adoption by subsiding public charging infrastructure instead of private vehicle purchases. However, that's not the market we're in today. I believe the grants role is to increase the margin on an individual vehicle so that it's sold here instead of the mainland. We're effectively competing with 26 other EU states for the EV to be on our roads.

Call me a selfish nationalist but I prefer cleaner air in towns here instead of Romania. I'd also much rather reduce our reliance on foreign energy imports, something which is achievable by electrification but not in continued sales of combustion engine vehicles.

UID0

The issue I have with the grant is purely that I don't feel it gives the best value for the taxpayer. Any incentive (of which the grant is only one) should drive behaviour towards the most desired outcome. At the moment, given demand is massively in excess of supply, the importers/dealers want to sell as many of their vehicles as close to the €60k limit for the grant as possible. This maximises their profit, but is also resulting in larger heavier vehicles being sold, which limits the reduction in emissions. I agree that when the grant was introduced it was effective. It's aim was to stimulate demand and it did so, but as the market is supply constrained and not demand constrained, its necessity is in doubt.

I believe that the grant should be reduced (in a phased manner, not like the 2007 change in tax rates) and the money that is saved by the reduction in the EV grant should be used either to incentivise the sale of smaller, lighter, cheaper EVs or to reduce the carbon intensity of the electrical grid (which will put a downward pressure on electrical energy prices to partially offset the rising fossil fuel prices, increasing the savings of an EV relative to an ICE vehicle, and improving the return for those who choose to replace gas central heating with a heat pump) or to provide other incentives or remove/reduce barriers for electric vehicles.

I agree that from a macro economic perspective it will be the same, but from an environmental perspective it isn't, and from the point of reducing the greenhouse gas emissions for the nation as a whole, and the accompanying carbon fines, it isn't.

Of course, I don't know how many vehicles the grant applies to, or how many are business/taxi purchases, so it could be that changing the grant criteria wouldn't make much difference.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119178462#Comment_119178462

SEAI Consumer grant applies to taxi purchases.

I processed 3 of them for family last year alone.

UID0

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119179384#Comment_119179384

I thought the eSPSV grant was the scheme for taxis. Gives them up to €25k towards an EV. They're still eligible for the €600 from the SEAI towards an EVSE which commercial purchasers aren't.

ELM327

the eSPSV grant, the SEAI grant and the VRT rebate all apply to taxi purchasers afaik

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119179479#Comment_119179479

Yes. We put 2x eNiros on the road last year. One for €28k and another for €17k. The lower one got in early 2021 before Kia increased their prices and the general uptake of EV’s took off. Another MG5 on the road for €10,400.

You purchase the car in the same way as any other punter. Through the dealer for the RRP. €37,500 for the eNiro for example. That price includes the SEAI Grant of €5k. To leave the dealer ship you tax it there and then for 3 months.

Then you process the change over to an SPSV. Test, equipment and suitability.

Sold the old cars to N2 Salvage. They paid us €1600 for the 132 Prius. Received a cert of destruction.

Sent all that to NTA and a further 20km in grants received.

The 25k is for WAV I believe.

Then got the Wallbox Pulsar Plus fitted for €1199. Then got the €600 grant back.

eagerv

A problem I can see with our high taxes on EVs (and €5k grant on lesser priced ones) is that family cars which are presently popular in Ireland such as ID.4, Ioniq 5, EV6, Model 3 etc, which atm just scrape in with the grant. As prices increase it will only be the base models of the above that will be the main sellers, ie what people can afford.

This appears all well and good. The grant going where it should go, at the more affordable end of the market to help stimulate growth. But in reality the manufacturers at the moment want to sell their higher specced cars, where they make the most profit. I can see where they simply will not sell only base models into a very small market, preferring to sell where tax systems allow them to sell a broader range.

UID0

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119179545#Comment_119179545

I hadn't realised taxi drivers were eligible for the SEAI grant as well. Does the €5k apply if the it's a company as opposed to a sole trader? It's not surprising how many EV taxis there are on the roads at that level of incentive, and that all of the funding for this year has been used already.

There's a list on the NTA website for what vehicles are eligible. I'm surprised that the Zoe is still acceptable.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119178515#Comment_119178515

The second hand vehicles would come from the same place as the new vehicles - imports.

I'm not an expert on designing such schemes, so I'm not gonna try, but it wouldn't take rocket science to provide a subsidy for purchases of 2nd hand EVs, subject to some conditions.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119179760#Comment_119179760

Zoe, like the original Leaf doesn’t meet the space requirements but gets an exemption to encourage EV use.

There is no reference to sole trader, company etc when buying.

At the point of purchase the owner is a private individual. The fact he/she converts it to SPSV afterwards is nothing to do with the SEAI.

unkel

I find it very surprising that not at least a very significant number of taxis in Dublin are EVs by now. The financial incentives are unreal and the benefits almost as good, car never down for maintenance, charging overnight at home about 80% cheaper than diesel or petrol - no need to charge during shift. All the EV taxi drivers I ever talk to are very happy with all this. And most of the ones I talk to with diesels says they'll always drive a diesel (rolleyes - usually older Irish gentlemen) and the hybrid drivers just aren't sure yet. There's a lot of hybrid taxis, don't want to be racist but they seem to be the choice of vehicle for certain drivers born not in Ireland

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119179885#Comment_119179885

There isn't a right hand drive country with an oversupply of 2nd hand vehicles to make it worth while. Maybe if you can't figure such a system you shouldn't propose one, we already have the VRT exemption which was incentive enough before Brexit for cars to be brought over from the UK.

Let's say we applied the current SEAI grant to 2nd hand imports, your effectively giving money to UK tax payers to sell their cars in Ireland instead of the UK. I don't think many people would be happy putting money into the pockets of UK taxpayers.