The grant needs to go!

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119930772#Comment_119930772

You know more than most thatr public charging is not needed every day, most ev owners do most of their charging at home on night rate

liamog

We see it enough times, people will spend extra money on a car with a large battery to avoid the few times a year where they may have to have charge mid-journey. I think that's a huge waste but is primarily caused by deficiencies in our inter-urban network.

If the network was good, even with the high prices, those same people would better off spending an extra €25 on a charge instead of spending €5,000 on the bigger battery. As @ELM327 points out, for those customers a very high percentage of their charging is done at home, the big batteries should really only be purchased by people who are doing weekly trips that need to avoid a mid-journey top up.

Red Silurian

The grant should go. Temporarily. Without the grant now there will be just as many EVs on our roads because the supply lines (of all car types) is is a disaster.

In a few years time the supply lines will be fixed, once that happens we should reintroduce the grant to convince those who are buying new, in an unconstrained market, to go EV

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119930789#Comment_119930789

Yeah but there's a substantial amount of People without home charging that would otherwise have to depend on expensive public charging and at the cost it's too inconvenient to pay for all that waiting around.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119932380#Comment_119932380

Completely irrelevant though. Market rates. We dont give free fuel to apartment dwellers. Why should we give free electricity

Old diesel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119930772#Comment_119930772

Electricity prices are likely to be sorted out.

Not because of EV transition specifically but because it impacts things like businesses and therefore jobs and therefore the economy.

Price of the cars......

All cars are going up in price - a new Yaris is over 21 k now and that's for a 72 hp 1 litre - not even a hybrid.

Also if you are right - if the EVs really are too expensive then 2nd hand ones get cheaper.

And *eventually* new ones will likely get cheaper as manufacturers respond to the market signals.

Worth noting that Renault are aiming for the R5 EV to come in at 17.5 k sterling.

Thats less then a Fiesta in UK.

In terms of charging infrastructure - you can disagree with me all you like - but the technology is there to create excellent infrastructure.

Your ID3 might be crap at charging but neither is it the best EV tech in 2022 can do.

The cutting edge of EV technology in operational service today is when Bjorn Neyland in a Model 3 does 1000 kms in 9 hrs 20 mins.

Let's consider how that 9 hrs 20 mins is achieved......

1) the Model 3 tested was extremely efficient. So it went 250 miles to the first charge.

2) Good charging speed - meaning shorter charging stops.....

3) Good infrastructure - good charger availability. Multiple chargers at sites.....

I don't believe its a pipe dream to deliver charging infrastructure in numbers....

Applegreen are in the EV charging business now.

SSE airtricity intend to deliver a charging site in Mullingar and follow up with more.

ESB gave a statement to Clare Byrne re price increases and as part of it say they will double rapid charger numbers.

Easygo are working with councils and Eir on rapid charger deployment.

A lot of work to be done but I think its doable and not a pipe dream.

What *IS* a pipe dream is the idea that we can keep driving diesels because some people think putting in charging infrastructure is a bit hard.

Old diesel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119932438#Comment_119932438

I disagree with pretty much everything Mad lad is saying in his EV critic stance.

But his point isn't that apartment dwellers should get *free* electricity.

The point is that if current electricity prices continued.

Then in the EV era they will pay diesel running costs for a less convenient to them EV...

However the non EV issues with current electricity prices mean that action will be required on those prices.

Will be interesting to see what solutions come forward for people with no home charging.

Because it frankly does need addressing - the "charge at home" mantra is a definite barrier to EV uptake.

Even for those who can charge at home as it reinforces the idea that EVs aren't fully flexible motoring options.

liamog

Mod Note: Removed discussion of the Bike to Work scheme

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119931963#Comment_119931963

The supply will go to any other EU market instead of Ireland which does sod all to reduce our vehicle emissions.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119932728#Comment_119932728

What supply?

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119933106#Comment_119933106

Every single one of those 222 EVs you see on the road are new cars supplied to the Irish market.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119932663#Comment_119932663

Surely the eventual solution to this thorny problem is the banning of new ICEs, then its a hobsons choice. The fact that EVs will be cheaper to run that current diesels will mean people who can't charge at home will be no worse off than at present. You can't solve every problem.. e.g. does Govt have to solve the problem of giving apartment dwellers access to free electricity generated from their own solar panels? Is it fair that guys with own roofs can soak up a taxpayper funded grant to install panels while apartment dwellers can't?

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119933307#Comment_119933307

Dont full understand that point. The reason there are new EVs on the road is that people are prepared to pay the price at which suppliers are willing to supply at. The imbalance at the moment is not on the demand side and there is nothing the Irish Govt can due, other than lavish even more scarce taxpayer on multinational corporations, to influence this supply.

I'm still waiting to hear stories of EV supply shortages in the only other significant RHD European market subsequent to effective removal of EV incentives there, coupled with no ICE disincentives.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119932663#Comment_119932663

Yes, I was engaging in a bit of reducto absurdium there. However, it's not really a problem we need to solve now. We have a scalable solution for EVs for people who can charge at home, to the point there's a dearth of supply. If we have >(x+1) people who want to buy an EV for the next 2-3 years, why would we spend public money creating more demand?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119932728#Comment_119932728

If you remove the grant, my 222 model 3 would have cost me 5k more. No change to the manufacturer. Theres a big pool of demand, to the point that nearly new cars are selling for higher than the new model. Sorry, but I disagree with you here.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119934247#Comment_119934247

Agreed. In fact I would bet my life on the fact that, were the grant removed, there would be no impact on EV sales in Ireland. We are not in a demand constrained market. The OEMs could simply pass the grant removal on. In fact most pre purchase agreements are worded in such a way to allow this.

UID0

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119934222#Comment_119934222

The guys with their own roofs and off-street parking had to pay to have their own roofs and off-street parking. When I was buying my house (about 20 years ago) the price differential between end of terrace town houses and semi-detached houses was about €30k (10%). Mid terrace town houses were €20k less than end-of-terrace, and apartments were about €15k less than mid-terrace. The extra VAT paid on my house was nearly as much as the maximum grant for solar panels. In any given location, there is an extra cost to purchase a home with off-street parking than one without (all other things being equal).

The solar panel grant has a value for every electricity customer in that it reduces the demand, and because of the way our electricity market works, the most expensive generators are who get cut. The value for the taxpayer in the EV grant is to stimulate demand in an effort to reduce the use of petrol/diesel for transport, but as the market is currently supply constrained, not demand constrained it isn't actually providing any benefit to the taxpayer in general (only to the consumer who is purchasing the vehicle). The money being spent on EV grants would be more beneficially spent on public/active transport or accelerating commercial/psv migration to alternative fuels.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119934361#Comment_119934361

At model 3 prices maybe, but adding €5,000 to the price of an e208 and it becomes a very expensive car and likely unsellable

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119937956#Comment_119937956

Do you think someone wouldnt buy it? It would remain on the dealer lot?

I don't think so. There will be someone to pay the premium. Even the likes of 2020 Konas are seeing prices increase to near what was paid in 2020! It's not just Tesla

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119938508#Comment_119938508

With a 10% deposit a base mode 208 is €395 a month, the electric is €513. I think €118 is just about the right spot for the TCO to balance out for the first purchaser. If you added an extra €5,000 to that price at the same rate (3.9%), the monthly price difference becomes €265 per month. I don't think a sensible person would accept that much extra, there's no way you're saving any money on monthly costs.

That leaves the manufacturer with the choice of reducing the price to sell cars which lowers the margin. In which case they'd be better off selling the car in a different European market. I don't think the car will remain at the dealers, I just don't think it will be sent there in the first place.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119939256#Comment_119939256

I mean, an extra 100-150 a month isnt likely to make or break a deal for an EV anyway. That's around one tank of petrol or diesel these days. Dealers can't get enough cars, there's year long waiting lists, do you think really that they won't sell at 5k more?

In the US theres often more than 5k dealer markup. Even the Ioniq 28 had it. Demand outstripping supply

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119939277#Comment_119939277

Yes, that's why I keep saying it. It's an extra €150 a month on top of already paying a premium per month for going electric. I think the value proposition is completely shot at €265 a month for the same car with a different drivetrain.

The Real President Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119917342#Comment_119917342

Holy crap and thank you, that's some business welfare though

Coincidentally Irish Times had a piece last week saying a small petrol would be cheaper to run than an electric car with the recent price increases

The Real President Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119918899#Comment_119918899

You're right well almost it's like 13.5 but thank you, however the day rate is 50+ cent per kwh a terrible deal all round

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119947197#Comment_119947197

Any link to that? Bit of a generic statement, can likely only be true for someone doing a very low mileage and / or comparing a very cheap petrol car to a very cheap EV, the latter being about twice as much to purchase, but not really a comparable car. Probably also some dodgy calculations and assumptions like depreciation will be similar percentages on petrol and BEV while we have already seen that is not at all the case.

But I will patiently wait for the link first before I make any of these assumptions about the piece myself 😂

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119947197#Comment_119947197

Common sense one you read your own facts on EV’s and not listen to people that don’t know. The IT for example.

I suspect your IT article is BS too unless you can provide some data to back it up, exactly as I have.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119947205#Comment_119947205

44c currently on the energia website.

However currently (50 units vs 1900 units) most of my usage is at night so I generally disregard the day rate when comparing

crisco10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119947627#Comment_119947627

I suspect he is referring to this infuriating article which I've taken some quotes from.

https://www.irishtimes.com/transport/2022/11/24/electric-vehicle-charging-to-match-cost-of-diesel-after-67-further-hike/

Electric vehicle charging to match cost of diesel after 67% further hike

The cost of charging an electric vehicle at ESB public charge points is to rise by as much as 67 per cent from December 20th, having already risen by up to 47 per cent in May.

The price increases mean that for the first time fuelling many electric vehicles will be at least as expensive as diesel, while in a number of cases it would be cheaper to drive a small petrol-powered car.

.....

In an email to customers this week ESB eCars revealed the price for “standard” or slow, roadside charging which can take typically eight to ten hours, would rise from 33.6 cent per kWh to 56.3 cent per kWh, a rise of 23 cent per kWh, or about 67 per cent.

Charges for using a “fast charger” which delivers up to 50 kWh and can charge a typical electric vehicle to 80 per cent in about 40 minutes, will rise from 39.4 cent per kWh to 64.7 cent per kWh. This is a rise of some 64 per cent.

Charges for using a “rapid charger” which delivers up to 150 kWh, are set to rise from 46.1 cent per kWh to 61. 7 cents per kWh, an increase of almost 34 per cent. The 150 kWh chargers are not three times faster than their 50kWh counterparts, due in part to limits to the speed at which cars are able to accept a charge. The prices quoted are for pay-as-you-go charging. Bill payment is slightly cheaper, but requires a monthly subscription fee of €4.79.

...

There are alternatives however and drivers can get cheaper rates if they are able to charge at home, and cheaper again if they can avail of smart meter rates.

...

Someone with a smart meter using a night rate can avail of a price of 21.5 cent per kWh, while those charging a car on the Night Boost tariff sees the rate fall to 12.6 cent per kWh between the hours of 2am and 4am.

Blake Boland of the AA said the latest price rises would bring the cost of electricity on the public charging network broadly into line with the price of diesel.

...

ELM327

He mixes up kW and kWh, mentions smart meters but doesnt include the cheaper day night meters.

sh81722

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119947197#Comment_119947197

In other news: It's also cheaper to walk than to drive a classic Ioniq exclusively on the public charging.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119947885#Comment_119947885

Always a bad sign anyone mixing up units. Surely it wasn't written by that dinosaur Irish Times motoring journalist who should have retired 30 years ago?