The grant needs to go!

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119959300#Comment_119959300

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119959110#Comment_119959110

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119958718#Comment_119958718

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119958838#Comment_119958838

Full agreement here @ELM327!

Folks don't get the idea of tax exemption being cheap to administer by the state, being transparent, being effective at reducing the commodity price and being the least harmful market intervention there is!

Grants are distorting the market and just don't work - the manufacturer/seller gets the money, their design is obscure and/or convoluted to the consumer, they ultimately are not benefiting the consumer, they are encouraging corruption and most importantly they don't push the manufacturer/seller to reduce the price at all. In fact, they encourage price increase.

Tax exemption on the desired (EV) along with the taxation of the undesired (ICE) is the least disruptive Government market intervention and the simplest, tested model of changing consumer behavior. Carrot and stick.

The Irish gov knows very well how to use the stick part (tobacco, alcohol) but is afraid to (lobbied not to?) deploy it for ICEs and is also afraid to (lobbied not to?) deploy the carrot part for EVs.

As a result there's no stick and only a rotten carrot. ICE wins and the EV dynamic is just way too slow what it could be in probably the easiest place to deploy EVs in the EU (bar microstates).

Sweden, Finland, Norway are way larger and colder countries and also connected to a landmass which is more challenging for an EV adoption.

liamog

Tax exemption on the desired (EV) along with the taxation of the undesired (ICE) is the least disruptive Government market intervention and the simplest, tested model of changing consumer behavior. Carrot and stick.

@McGiver I agree with you that we are missing the stick to discourage ICE sales.

However, whether the carrot is a €5,000 grant with an administration overhead or a tax exemption with an overhead the effects are the exact same. Any measure is going to distort the market that is the purpose of using financial measures to change behaviour. Any measure that results in a lower on the road price for the vehicle will result in the manufacturer increasing the price of the vehicle to ensure they take the maximum profit they can at a particular price point.

How would a tax exemption over a direct grant reduce the on the road price?

Old diesel

Leave it to the market you say????

Well the market is.....

"James" - who thinks his right to drive a 60,000 euro diesel is far more important than any climate objectives.

"Jacksie" who wants to keep selling diesel fuel indefinitely because its what he knows. 350 kW charging is of no interest to him.

"Tommy" who wants to sell diesel Octavias and resents the Enyaq demonstrator.

"Jane" bless her - all she wants is a nice reliable car to go to work in the HSE as a nurse. She might drive a Hybrid but EVs are new to her and she's afraid she will be let down by them.

That's how I visualise the market in my head.....

Now what do we likely need.

1) "James" needs to be discouraged financially from buying an ICE car. He will only drive an EV if the diesel costs too much in comparison.

2) "Jacksie" needs strong financial incentives to move towards EV charging.

3) "Tommy" needs to realise that diesel Octavias are *not* the future.

4) "Jane" needs to be offered opportunities to drive EVs for extended periods. And have someone explain what EVing is about - like getting a charger at home if she has off street parking.

And she needs the transition to EVs to be financially attractive.

Leave it to the market to work itself out and what you end up with is - 70 mpg hybrids on petrol being the solution.

When in fact we need *less* fossil fuel cars.

liamog

I think the Taxi EV incentive is one of the best moves, people trust taxi drivers on cars.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119976490#Comment_119976490

So basically all ICE owners / retailers can be considered luddites and a bit slow who don't know any better. What if poor auld slow witted public servant Jane lives in an apartment without dedicated parking? I do agree with you though I would love a nice cheap oversized SUV EV largely funded by the taxpayer.

I don't get the argument that a tax exemption is somehow a stealth way of providing cheap EVs to the masses under the car makers noses. With the grant a person buying a €60k EV pays €55k for it. From the buyers perspective how is that different to buying the car at €60k and receiving a €5k tax credit? Car still cost €55k. Both dealer and buyer know this and make the deal in full knowledge of the actual cost to the buyer.

Reading these threads would actually make you believe that there is currently no state imposed financial disincentive to buying ICE cars in this country.

Old diesel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119978340#Comment_119978340

What the market would call for at the moment if left to its own devices is.....

Cheap hybrids and diesels - because the market isn't interested in the sustainability of the fossil fuels going forward.

Yes I exaggerated the luddite nature to unsuccessfully illustrate the issues of leaving the market sort it by itself.

The problem is that the big driver of change for ICE drivers isn't the planet.

But the bank balance.....

Just my opinion

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119978614#Comment_119978614

Ditto with EV drivers which is why EVs are being subsidised by exempting them from VRT up to value of 40k, providing a taxpayer funded €5k grant for all cars up to €60k and finally throwing in €600 grant for an EV charger. Not a bad little haul for someone hell bent of spending €60k on a car.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119978340#Comment_119978340

The government have not introduced the kind of punitive tax increases on the purchase of ICE vehicles that has been effective in other jurisdictions. Right now we only have the purchase grant and a tax exemption to act as carrots.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119979507#Comment_119979507

It's either the taxpayer contributes towards transitioning away from combustion engined private transport, or that same taxpayer contributes towards paying fines for failing to reach the emissions reductions targets. We only achieved our targets in 2020 by buying offsets from Estonia and Denmark.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119979809#Comment_119979809

We don't have to pay fines, the Government signed up to it bunch of Retards.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119981469#Comment_119981469

What did the German ambassador say .. something along the lines why do the Irish always want be loved! We love to be seen as great chaps and have our heads patted by our betters.

MightyMunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119952827#Comment_119952827

You're missing the point though, in terms of fuel efficiency a Yaris cross is worse than a Yaris. A X3 is worse than a 3 series.

Same for EVs, a Model 3 is better than an ID4 etc. No one is saying a Yaris cross is the same as a F250.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119982603#Comment_119982603

From a sales and stats perspective they are, SUV sales are increasing because it's currently fashionable to add a bit of height to the driving position and call the car an SUV. We're totally beyond any kind of critical assessment beyond car is called SUV therefore car is bad.

Take the T-Roc (VW's best selling ICE vehicle in Ireland) and compare to an ID.3. One is an absolutely evil SUV that epitomises everything bad about modern motoring the other is a family hatchback. When you compare their actual dimensions, the T-Roc is 1cm wider, 0.5cm taller and 2.5cm shorter than an ID.3.

MojoMaker

Ingrained perceptions do often be silly...as they say.

MightyMunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119985153#Comment_119985153

A 1l petrol troc is 6l/100km a 1l golf is 4.8l/100km. Dimensions look similar, golf is 5cm longer, Troc is 3cm wider.

So for a 25% increase in fuel use (in the midst of an economic and climate crisis) you get what? Nothing.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119985817#Comment_119985817

You do seem to have missed the point, the definition of an SUV is not a technical one as seen by the dimensions of an ID.3 and T.Roc. Its simply a marketing term which shouldn't be used to make policy decisions.

MightyMunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119985876#Comment_119985876

It's a simple upping of the motortax and VRT to increase the price differential for less efficient cars. Should be an EU side move against jacked up cars. Should also be applied to BEVs, if you want to drive a big box that uses 25kwh/100km you should be penalized for it in an energy crisis.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119986089#Comment_119986089

We already have that based on emissions class, and the application of taxes on energy dispensing. The more energy a person uses to power the car the more tax they pay. In the case of ICE it's duty + vat on fuel purchases. On a BEV it's just the flat VAT on electricity supplied to the chargers.

What we don't have it's a taxation system based on an arbitrary label of marketing called it an SUV.

MightyMunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119986875#Comment_119986875

It's obviously not working if people are choosing the likes of a Troc over a Golf.

In the top 10 best selling cars in Ireland this year only the Corolla isn't an SUV /crossover/car on stilts or whatever you call it.

These less efficient cars will be pumping out 10-20% more CO2 than the equivalent cars for the next 10-15 years.

Every year this isn't addressed it's making our emissions targets harder to meet. And also applies to BEVs e.g.best selling EV is the inefficient ID4.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119987406#Comment_119987406

You'd need to look at why people are choosing are picking the T-Roc over the Golf. Clearly the .4l/100km running cost and the extra €10 motor tax are offset by other differences in the vehicles. Car purchases have never been a purely functional purchase, we don't just buy an engine on wheels.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119982442#Comment_119982442

Yes, exactly what I say!!!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119985876#Comment_119985876

Most are actually crossovers not SUV, Proper SUV like Land Rover or even better, GMC style SUV are in my opinion deserving of the name SUV, BMW X5 maybe.

This is an SUV.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119987406#Comment_119987406

More CO2 for a greener Earth! :-)

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119988005#Comment_119988005

They are still reported in the SUV category which is what causes all of the dialog. Stats will say SUV sales and the article will show a picture of a Range Rover, meanwhile the cars that are selling are T-Rocs, Kona's and Qashqai's.

MightyMunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119987562#Comment_119987562

1.2 not 0.4, doesn't matter what you call them they're inefficient and preventing us from hitting our climate targets. Politicians don't want to make the hard decisions, if 10 Euro tax and 400 in fuel a year isn't enough then they need to jack up the price of fuel, VRT or motor tax, or all 3.

The alternative is to ban ice sales a few years earlier.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119988400#Comment_119988400

What would you ban? I've already pointed out that the definition of an SUV is not a technical one and is simply a marketing term. If you banned the sales of SUVs tomorrow, the T-Roc would be reported as a different class of car, you wouldn't change the reason people are choosing one model over the other.

This is why I say it's important to avoid making policy based on advertising.

MightyMunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119988498#Comment_119988498

As I said bring in the date for the ban on ice by a couple of years, this is already coming EU wide so nothing new.

In the meantime ramp up the VRT on higher emissions cars each year until the ban to discourage people from buying big square inefficient boxes. This would make the likes of a Yaris Cross substantially more expensive than a Yaris.

Could leave motor tax as is so as not to penalize lower earners that aren't splashing out on new cars, but will be stuck with today's poor buying decisions by others for the next 15 years

josip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119988005#Comment_119988005

The motoring 'Sporty' equivalent of William the Refrigerator Perry.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119990593#Comment_119990593

Bad analogy, the fridge was a professional sports athlete for years

josip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119995085#Comment_119995085

We'll have to agree to differ on the appropriateness of the analogy. Both are/were considerably overweight in my opinion for something/someone that's supposed to be sporty. This line from his wiki page could be used word for word for the GMC above.

"In his ten years as a pro, he regularly struggled with his weight, which hampered his performance at times."

if People like cars like the GMC SUV then the weight won't bother them, you could say my "eco" id3 tour 5 is overweight too, which it is. Probably not that far off the GMC truth be told.