NZ Tour 2022 - Māori June 29th, NZ July 2nd, NZ July 9th, Māori July 12th, NZ July 16th, KO 8.05am

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119266318#Comment_119266318

 he shouldn't have been brought on this tour to start as a 10 without any game time in that position.

He wasn't brought on this tour to start as a 10.

Harry Byrne, the actual third choice out-half, is injured. Do people not realise this or something? It's incredibly unfair to be having a pop at Farrell over this.

The choice was either to have a look at Frawley or play Carbery. I think we made the right call.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119266359#Comment_119266359

Harry Byrne didn't earn his place either and likely would have been just as out of depth as Frawley was this morning

CowboyTed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119265999#Comment_119265999

To me Frawley looked like a player that just needs more time at 10... He has only played there once since he was 21, 2.5 years ago... That is expecting an awful lot... Would love to see him get 4-5 games at URC level (or any level) to get into the frame of running a game. There has to be a confidence/arrogance at 10 to get things rolling..

BTW, I said 3 years ago that Frawley should have been moved to place where he would get time at 10... He looks like a seriously good player with that as his position... The question should have been asked of Leinster, are ye persisting with Ross cause we need to blood new possible Irish 10s... I know that is unfair on Leinster but we give time to possible internationals which involves risks that maybe are not in Leinster's interest..

TRC10

I must be missing something because I can't for the life of me see how Billy Burns, Ross Byrne or Ben Healy do any better. They all have equally gaping holes in the their game as Frawley. We know the level of R.Byrne and Burns and it ain't international rugby. Healy I would have taken and I think he has potential. But he has been hot and cold and I wouldn't cry if he went to Scotland. He's not better than Russell, Kinghorn, Hastings or Ross Thompson.

When our attack got going, Frawley was attacking the gainline, committing defenders, throwing good passes and looking slick. Yes, he made a couple of dodgy decisions (when everything around him was falling to pieces), but this is a guy who has played 10 once in 2 years, and don't pretend the other options don't also make dodgy decisions. He also made 20 tackles.

I look forward to Sexton finally retiring, because people might then stop expecting utter perfection from every single 10 who takes the field. I firmly believe there were positive signs there, and I really hope he isn't binned. And I was quite sceptical about him at 10 beforehand.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119266397#Comment_119266397

That's a different question though. Your criticism of Farrell was not warranted.

As for Harry Byrne, maybe he'd have struggled, but I'm not sure who we could have played that would have been better.

Must love hardship

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119266359#Comment_119266359

I 100% agree with you. When byrne tweaked the hamstring over the last week it was worth looking at Frawley.

Given his limited game time there this year he is worth another look or at least the 12 Jersey if Harry byrne is fit for the match Tuesday Week

Another option which could have been looked at was lowry at 10. But I'm not sure a 9 10 axis of casey and lowry would be physical enough for international rugby.

Personally I'd have Brought Doak on this tour. I think he has the "potential" to be the starting scrum half in Wc in 23. I couldn't say the same for Casey.

Obviously very easy say to say that when one is at home and not played at this level and the other just had a shocker.

clsmooth

Not a good look..

https://mobile.twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1542094709698531330?s=20&t=aQMoHEdbkyCjXtzj5NYajQ

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119266450#Comment_119266450

That's genuinely disgraceful, and goes against all the guidance you hear about in the situation. He looked out of it walking off the field too. I can't understand how they let him back in there for 30 mins of rugby after that.

letsbefair

Farrell name checked Frawley, Coombes and Casey after the game, so lads maybe you shouldn’t jump to conclusions. We learned far more from losing that match than an easy win. Very happy that all of them will improve by next Wednesday

Must love hardship

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119266485#Comment_119266485

They said he passed the HIA and took off at ht as a precaution.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119266536#Comment_119266536

Yeah, I'm guessing he did, but I thought they had updated the guidance that in scenarios where players looked to be obviously unstable or out of it, that in no circumstances would the player return; that they wouldn't even bother with the HIA.

You'd have to wonder if the medical staff saw that footage how they allowed him to continue.

Itxa

This place has gone to shite. I see there’s a good few players friends online looking to stick the knife in and paint it as provincialism.

Casey and Frawley we’re not the issue today. Casey brought his usual high tempo game and it worked. He got his snipes but I will re-look at the game for passing and decision making.

Frawley looked comfortable and he looks like a natural footballer when he plays. A few wayward kicks like he was playing in the park with his friends dont sum up his performance. He looked to play through the hands today and here’s the caveat - he draws defenders when he does that -Harry doesn’t.

I think we coughed up a few cheap tries and that was the difference. It’s not by any means the doom and gloom some idiots on here would have you believe.

stephen_n

This place is gas, play this player, play that player, we need to blood young players. Player X is the answer so is player Y.

Then you get this team is average, waste of jersey, not good enough, only URC standard. Player X was crap, he’s not the answer, player Y was even worse.

It really is laughable sometimes. 5 players starting their first ever test match. Only one player in the team who might be considered a starter for Ireland. Two or three others that would make it into the 23. None of the pack probably would if it wasn’t for injuries to Henderson and Herring.

Where we really lost out today was ruck protection. They really went after our ruck and when they didn’t turn it over. They disrupted it enough to stall our attack. This lead to poor decisions and panic from a young team. A lot of that was tidied up at halftime. The backrow overall disappointed me a little in that context. Though I think we will learn a huge amount from today.

snotboogie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119266416#Comment_119266416

I agree with most of this. I wasn’t having a pop at Frawley. I think he showed enough today to get another few looks at international level. I’m just looking from Healys perspective. He’s been one of the better 10’s in the country, has never got a look with the national team and he can’t get on a 40 man squad with multiple uncapped players with an injury at his position.

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119266725#Comment_119266725

He’s been one of the better 10’s in the country

This unfortunately isn't saying much. But I take your point.

Itxa

From my intermittent viewing I thought Prendergast was our best player. He was constantly threatening to jackal the breakdown and as a lineout option he looks better than even our second rows.

Itxa

And another thing Harry Byrne tries to put those grubber kicks through in attacking positions because he doesn’t have the gas to create the space. It’s only a marginal thing but very important in the red zone and it throws away attacking opportunities. And he does it too often so it’s predictable. Frawley looks to create openings and it didn’t come off today but was by no means a ‘mare.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119265353#Comment_119265353

An impressively prophetic comment, seeing as it was posted before Carbery even came onto the pitch!

boetstark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119265743#Comment_119265743

Ah come on. Are you related to casey. He is so headless. His kicking is poor he makes frantic decisions like breaking without support and due to size issue easily put to ground and turned over.

If energy and speed was all that was required in a scrumhalf he would be a world beater. Plus he is being targeted by opposition in defence. I am a munster fan btw

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119266725#Comment_119266725

He’s been one of the better 10’s in the country

But he hasn't been. He's been good on occasion against second-rate URC teams but against better teams he either hasn't performed or just hasn't got on the pitch. For all Carbery's weaknesses, Healy is still nowhere near him at Munster.

I don't know where people are going saying he should be on tour, or that he's likely to go to Scotland and get caps for them.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119266741#Comment_119266741

I think both Prendergast and McCarthy were guilty of being overly keen in trying to make an impact resulting in them getting caught offside several times and missing tackles because they charged up looking for the big hit.

Those are easily fixed issues that will come good with more experience , but they both have the skill-set to do very well at the highest level and are more than worth continuing to work with them..

Shehal

The only positive overall I can take from this is I don't think we can possibly be as bad again, that first half I would like the men in black to show up and permanently scrub it from existence.

crisco10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119266934#Comment_119266934

Barnes told Prendergast to stop trying to compete for everything at one point. I'm still a bit confused why the ref would feel the need to say that.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119266516#Comment_119266516

There's no game next Wednesday! It's on Tuesday 12th. (Or Marching day as it's called around Ravenhill!).

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119267014#Comment_119267014

I heard that at the time , I think he pinged him for having a second go at a jackal so I think the context was more a case of "learn when you've lost/missed the jackal opportunity" rather than telling him not to compete.

leakyboots

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119267014#Comment_119267014

Because he was doing so illegally

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119266891#Comment_119266891

Yep. Anyway, I thought that the Munster folk consider Healy as merely the placeholder for the talented Jack Crowley?

Itxa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119266872#Comment_119266872

I see you’re obviously from the Connor Murray school of cool and composed but little or no pace on the game. It worked for Joe in 2018 but we were figured out after that. The Box kicking game is easily countered.

There is a lot to be said for a high tempo scrum half but the back row and supporting backs have to clean out rucks all day at the same tempo for it to work.

Personally I like Casey. The headlessness is outweighed by the positive yardage he gains by snipes. Will look later at passing, kicking and decision making

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119266359#Comment_119266359

I see your point, FFF, but the extent to which you can criticise Farrell for this is that it’s not especially surprising that Harry Byrne picked up an injury and we were forced into playing Frawley (accepting injuries elsewhere also probably preventing Lowry being an option).

I’m not sure Carty is the answer, but the timing of his injury was unfortunate to be fair.

My worry is that Sexton, Carbery and HB are probably our 3 most injury prone 10’s.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119267078#Comment_119267078

The positive yardage he gains by snipes is outweighed by being instantly turned over because he's ran down a blind alley, gotten himself quickly isolated and loses the contact.

He lacks composure, knowing when is the right moment to snipe.

He'll get there I think, but he's nowhere near it yet. Needs more gametime.

irelandrover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119266891#Comment_119266891

Who do you think has been better than Healy? Obviously Sexton and i say Burns as well. Carty has had games where he is clearly better but also games where he is far worse.

There were definitely calls for him to start ahead of Carbery this year but i do think his form has fallen in the second half of the year.

At this stage I think they cant invest much more time in Harry Byrne as high as his ceiling is. He just cant be relied upon to stay fit and other options have to be looked at. They know what Burns and Carty can do as they have been part of the squad so Healy seems to be the only other option.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119267047#Comment_119267047

Long-term, I personally think Crowley will become Munster’s first choice 10. But I certainly wouldn’t go as far to say Healy is a “placeholder”. He has lots of potential in his own right, but I still wouldn’t have him in the Ireland squad at the moment either.

It’s very difficult to predict how things will work out for young players (perhaps especially 10’s). Just at Munster, look at Carbery, JJ and even Johnny Holland.

StevenToast

Today has nothing to do with the test series...the injuries can be replaced with similar standard squad players.....i think Ireland will get 1 win in the test series....make it interesting in another and maybe get a spanking in the other....

StevenToast

RTE news : Loughman incident 'deeply alarming', say welfare group

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2022/0629/1307530-loughman-incident-deeply-alarming-say-welfare-group/

I said it at the time...this was the wrong call....

Id say there was pressure on the medics from the player himself and management to let him back on...they didnt want to flog Healy....

This will be an unwanted distraction now for Farrell...

irelandrover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119267250#Comment_119267250

I thought the reason there was an independent match doctor was to avoid this type of situation. Looking at the videos its hard to know why he was allowed back on.

Must love hardship

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119267250#Comment_119267250

The management team aren't in the dressing room during the HIA testing.

The irish management took him off when the spoke to him in the dressing room at half time.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119267288#Comment_119267288

According to a quote from Farrell it was the independent Dr. that cleared him to go back on and the Irish Mgmt that decided to keep him off after half-time.

Bottom-line though , anyone seeing the footage immediately after the tackle should have decided that he was not fit to continue.

The HIA mostly works for "suspected" impacts but in a scenario like today where the player is clearly seen to be disorientated following a contact the HIA process shouldn't even come in to it - The player should be permanently removed from the game there and then.

arsebiscuits1

Just something to note as stated by Farrell below. Loughmans HIA was undertaken by an independent doctor.

It doesn't make the scenario better and I agree it's a terrible look. But there are always undertones from certain parties in these circumstances that team management put the game over the player welfare and in this case it is false.

https://www.the42.ie/cian-healy-injury-2-5802910-Jun2022/

Itxa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119267141#Comment_119267141

Lacks composure? The whole idea of playing high tempo is to negate the composure in your opponents. To catch them napping when they think they are in control. That isn’t lacking composure it’s testing the fault lines.

There is a case for control and composure but it’s when you have the game tied up and want to play territory.

There is also a case for bigger players playing scrum half a la Doak that dont get turned over as much but I think they offer less than a jinky scrum half who constantly tests the opposition.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119267358#Comment_119267358

I think you are viewing Composure and Tempo as mutually exclusive , they absolutely aren't.

"Murray Composure" for the want of a better word is what we don't want, where he sits at the base and contemplates life before box-kicking.

What we want is JGP or Dupont "composure" where they play at a high tempo but are thinking ahead and mostly picking the right options provided.

Casey doesn't really do either form of composure just yet and that's the part of his game that needs real development - More game time is clearly needed , but it's not unreasonable to call its current absence out.

Clegg

Didn't realise JOBs substitution was injury enforced.

He didn't play well, but he's capable of better. He's also someone we kinda need as he can cover centre if necessary. An injured Hume means we've potentially two centres gone from tour.

Shehal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119267338#Comment_119267338

The look ultimately is irrelevant, if he deemed okay to return by the professionals who would know more about the situation than we would then that's good enough for me.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119266891#Comment_119266891

wasps in the heineken cup for one

and scotland played a winger at 10 against ireland in the 6N so its not unfeasible that he would get into a squad

Madeoface

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119267114#Comment_119267114

Keith Wood said Frawley was one of the few positives on otb. Probably knows his rugby a bit more than you or I.

I didn't think he was great now I've caught up with the whole game, but I think he'd benefit from a second bite on the 12th. He was in Ross Byrne territory today. OK.

boetstark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119267078#Comment_119267078

I agree with some of what you said but as anyone who has played 9 you have to have structure and not play completely off the cuff. He is charging around the pitch ruck to ruck and firing passes to first receiver , nothing else. He kicks poorly and when he does snipe 9 times out of 10 he is turned over.

As I said previously I love his enery and passion but at this level that only gets you so far.

AbusesToilets

Not taking any of the Ulster or Connacht SHs on the tour looking worse and worse. Casey just isn't good enough imo, kicking game is poor and not controlling enough. McGrath is far better SH, and rightly isn't in with a shout of the team. How Murray and Casey are being viewed ahead of Cooney, Doak, Marmion and Blade is a mystery. Certainly not based on performances.

SaoPaulo41

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119267708#Comment_119267708

agree , Doak all round better player , and if Farrell wants to play fast game Blade also better than Casey. Mcgrath and Conney also better but correct not to bring.I just don't see it with Casey ,totally frantic .

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119267605#Comment_119267605

I dare say he does know more about rugby than us, but equally he has the capacity to phone it in sometimes. Earlier in the season for a knock-out Champions Cup game, he suggested Munster should play Haley on the wing, a position he has never started a professional game in. (Not the first time this season he suggested something like that either).

TomsOnTheRoof

Guess I'm the only one who thought Casey was decent then. He put up two perfect box kicks as well as that little chip in behind which brought us from just inside their half to the 22. His passing was crisp, especially considering the conditions, and he tried to bring the pack onto the ball. He made a couple of decent breaks too. Considering the Maori smashed us up front and at the breakdown I though he had a good game.

He's also been far and away Munster's best SH this season.

SaoPaulo41

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119267785#Comment_119267785

Well considering Murray is mainly competition at Munster,that's not really saying much.