Sinn Fein and how do they form a government dilemma

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766013#Comment_121766013

What?

If the lack of accountability and proper regulation of politics is due to the failure of successive governments failing to give the proper powers to the regulatory body, despite those bodies asking for them, and despite years of lipservice to giving them, who is at fault?

One thing that happened in 2001 is not the answer. This is a systemic decades long issue.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766007#Comment_121766007

So you are now arguing with yourself.

Good man!

pureza

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766027#Comment_121766027

How do you come to the conclusion I don't like Sinn Féin ? That's a big leap

You were the one denying that the people get what the people want and trying to rule out the chief reason for the lack of choice here,the incompetence of other parties in delivering choice

Mind you 2 fiercely competing parties isn't toxic in democracy anyway

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766045#Comment_121766045

So, the example you put forward of the toxic power swap between FF and FG was SIPO which was created on the back of the 'Standards in Public Office Act 2001', which FG voted against....

You couldn't even make this up! :D

One thing that happened in 2001 is not the answer. This is a systemic decades long issue.

I asked for an example.

You gave a weak one.

I utterly refuted it.

So do you have another example, with more teeth or you just want to go around in circle dancing on the pinhead?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766043#Comment_121766043

You didn't answer the question, of course. Seems to be a bad habit of yours.

Can I say here; I am not interested in 'other countries'. They are not an excuse. I don't point to 'other countries' saying they are better and we should do it their way therefore I am not interested in comparisons. If we are doing better or the same as somewhere else, that's great but it does nothing to address our issues unless you want to sweep them under the carpet and not address them.

We don't confront accountability issues. If we did SIPO would have the powers FF and FG pay lip service to when in a hole and then do nothing.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766062#Comment_121766062

I disagree that they were 'fiercely competing'.

They were comfortable with one and other and have engaged in sham fighting for a long time. Hence the ease of coalescing when the prospect of losing power loomed.

I think there are those in both parties who have a hankering to be distinct. As I said I expect that to manifest itself in the next stage.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766085#Comment_121766085

Can I say here; I am not interested in 'other countries'. They are not an excuse.

Of course, you don't, because then all your nebulous banal points are made redundant.

Ireland doesn't exist in a vacuum Francie. We are part of the EU, we are part of the global Western order.

But it seems that you cannot even attempt to answer the question, I asked.

What you are therefore looking for is Utopia, and complaining endlessly why Ireland isnt it, as you are not interested in the actual data, actual metrics, and actual benchmarks to compare Ireland to other similar western countries in how it performs.

You just want to make party political broadcasts, day in, day out, week after week.

At least be honest about it.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766107#Comment_121766107

Of course, you don't, because then all your nebulous banal points are made redundant.

No, because it is a stock and handy excuse to not confront our own issues.

A bit like saying, 'I am not going to do anything about my wife beating because the fella next door and the fella that owns the supermarket beat their wives too.'

BTW, you are making party political broadcasts here on behalf of the status quo.

pureza

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766099#Comment_121766099

Tbh,they were as friendly as the DUP and Sinn Féin

I still remember an FF stalwart on SE Radio shouting down an FG supporter with a civil war mantra 'An where were your crowd....I'll tell you where they were...they were hiding under the bed'

And that's not that long ago

They're still very angsty with one another on a local level,Sligo Co Council being a good example

They'd want to end the remnant antagonism before the General election or their goose will be cooked because in the current environment there is plenty of choice

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766128#Comment_121766128

So its Utopia or bust.

FFS!

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766150#Comment_121766150

Yes, individual rivalry still exists. No biggie there.

As far as the leaderships were concerned the whole ‘civil war’ stuff was insignificant, a sham fight in other words

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766209#Comment_121766209

Not sure the Politics forum is apt for that kind of a trite answer.

blanch152

The use of phrases like "toxic power swap" and "partitionist" tell a lot more about the poster using them, than the people labelled. Better ignored. Surprised that the phrases haven't been banned as the only purpose of them is to provoke and inflame debate.

If you want examples of toxicity in politics, look no further than the two main political parties in the North, the DUP and SF, taking it in turns to throw their toys out of the pram and deny the ordinary people a government for years at a time. That is true toxicity.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766333#Comment_121766333

All sorts of these phrases are fired out to get a reaction, then if you react the report button is used. "orange catholic" was fired out the other day with the poster desperate to get a reaction and when it didn't happen started talking about "taigs"

Seems odd to me on a politics forum this is what threads get reduced to.

As I said at the time in this day & age that type of language with "west brit" really should be chucked out with other derogatory terms which are banned. They add zero value and just used to bait

markodaly

This thread is taking on the same form as the older SF thread in CA.

Debate is about everything but SF, the actual topic of conversation.

FrancieBrady

Whenever the attacks on the poster and not the post stop maybe somebody will deal with the point made:

that the 'designed' (my opinion) lack of regulation engenders toxicity in politics and is a part of the reason people are frustrated and disillusioned with politics and power and voted for Enda when he sold the snake oil of 'New Politics' and are now turning elsewhere.

I mean, if there is no fundamental problems extant in Irish politics why was FG proposing a bogus 'New Politics' in the first place?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766473#Comment_121766473

You asked for examples of toxicity, and got one, and my reasons for thinking as I do. You ignored it and decided to go for the personal.

pureza

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766233#Comment_121766233

I don't agree

It's just an example of a more professional pragmatic leadership at national level developing

The Árd'fheiseána this year will tell a tale as to how far this has trickled down

Up to 2011,it was a fierce rivalry, peaking in the Haughey Fitzgerald era

There are no alternative facts

Just facts

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766533#Comment_121766533

Yes, let's continue talking about the 'toxic' power swap of FF and FG in a thread about SF.*

*Your example was laughable considering FG voted against SIPO

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766639#Comment_121766639

...and did nothing about introducing proper regulation and oversight. That was 2001 what have they done since?

*P.S. It was you asked for examples of the toxicity I mentioned in a point I made about SF's dilemma in forming a government.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766658#Comment_121766658

a) Your example was laughable considering FG voted against SIPO

b) Even taking you at face value, how is that considered 'toxic'? Western governments the world over face calls for more transparency, more oversight, more regulation and so on. Would you describe them as 'toxic'? Why do you frame it as toxic? And why would having a 3rd wheel in power fix that? Hint: It won't!

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766759#Comment_121766759

I disagree.

Because I believe a cosy blind eye has developed between 2 two parties.

I think that has gotten worse since C&S.

And I don’t share your pessimism about the future. I think your resignation to ‘that is how it is, it cannot be improved’ is a part of the problem.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121766836#Comment_121766836

You didnt elaborate on why its 'toxic'.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767039#Comment_121767039

Because the lack of proper accountability leads to more of the same.

Because nobody sees any accountability .

Rosahane

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767173#Comment_121767173

Accountability!

Remind us of the voting result figures for Michelle O'Neill when she replaced McGuinness as SF leader in NI?

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767173#Comment_121767173

What accountability have Sinn fein shown?

They have members who tweet racism and homophobic comments and nothing happens

They have members shouting "Up da RA' and nothing happens

The list goes on and on and on and on, right up to the leader , donations from criminals which she lies on TV about.

You talk about accountability but you don't want any accountability, it's just the latest waffle you think sounds good to complain about the government

As I said, in terms of toxic. That's all sitting with Sinn Fein, give us a shout when they clean it up and actually manage to have any sort of political record that could be seen as a success.

I again remind you of DCC and Sinn Fein managing to end up with less units than they started with over a 5 year period during a population growth in Dublin. Total incompetence but also from what I can see a plan by the party to make as many people homeless as possible in Ireland. Absolute toxic from top to bottom.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767173#Comment_121767173

The sheer risibility of a SF supporter calling for accountability where their whole party is led by the army council is delicious.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767299#Comment_121767299

Every single political party has problems with accountability. SF are no different.

If SF behave in the same way in government then they do not get a vote.

If a SF minister is not complaint with regulations like any other Minister should, they have to go. Simple as that.

If a SF leader or Minister is found to have abused planning law, has financial problems with the tax authorities, then they have to go.

If A SF leader is proven to have taken donations from someone they know to be a criminal then they have to go.

I have no idea what you mean by, 'the leader who is getting funding for her house????' but if it means getting funding they are not entitled to, then they have to go.

Incompetency? If people were ruled out of governance because of incompetency, there simply wouldn't have been a government here for most of the last 100 years.

Governments have and will do some things incompetently. That is not going to change unless we are extremely lucky.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767369#Comment_121767369

"Oh look over there" response which is predictable yet tiresome.

The last 100 years have got Ireland to the position they are in. You need to stop insulting the people of Ireland, past and present.

Carry on because you have zero credibility anymore, it's just a lists of excuses and then waffle.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121767398#Comment_121767398

Sorry, that doesn't wash.

We have major issues, and people want them addressed.

If your answer to that is, more or less, 'you never had it so good' don't be surprised if the vote share of FF and FG falls even further and the 100 years of power swapping between FF or FG or a coalition of the two, ends.