Sinn Fein and how do they form a government dilemma

jh79

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949142#Comment_121949142

You tell yourself whatever you need to get over them taking the soup.

jh79

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949128#Comment_121949128

Under the circumstances where we have a British SF on this island, i find it quite funny.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949148#Comment_121949148

If they took the soup, so be it.

I am glad the conflict/war is over.

I do wonder about some others on here on that. Seems respect would be given had they continued a conflict/war that had long since reached stalemate.

Or would it? Do you want to play both sides here morally?

A very conflicted position to have IMO

jh79

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949167#Comment_121949167

No it isn't. It's the charade that gets ridiculed. Being part of a British proxy government yet won't say Northern Ireland etc.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949188#Comment_121949188

Go on jh79...say it...doing what they agreed to do while still working to end partition.

I.E. They agreed to accept the majority wish which does not mean they endorse partition.

Again you reveal you would think more of them had they continued the conflict.. You taunt if they continue the armed struggle, demand they stop, then when they do, you taunt anyway.

I would hate to be that morally reprehensible tbh.

Anything for a win I suppose.

jh79

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949208#Comment_121949208

You hand wave away murder, rape, child abuse etc if it's for the cause! Nobody who supports either SF or the IRA can lecture on morals.

jh79

Would love to hear your opinions on the morals of protecting Liam Adams, the murder of Protestants at Kingsmills, Claudy, Brian Stack, commemorations for a guy who burnt a woman alive for the crime of being a different religion etc.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949239#Comment_121949239

All violence is condemned, that is the standard response, but the PIRA had no choice, and they brought the British to their knees. A whole heap of contradictory gobbledy-gook that doesn't align with historical fact.

If someone condemns all violence, then they cannot (without being a hypocrite) support Sinn Fein, who believe that violence was necessary.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949225#Comment_121949225

I never did any of that actually.

I didn't support SF or the IRA during the conflict and for years after.

What I didn't do was set glass ceilings for them when I voted wholeheartedly for the GFA.

They delivered their part of the deal, therefore are a legitimate democratic party to vote for.

jh79

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949246#Comment_121949246

Similar to SF in the Dail after the Dublin riots. Do they really expect us to take lectures on morality from convicted criminals and their supporters?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949246#Comment_121949246

'brought the British to their knees'

is typical blanch rewriting of what is said so he can have a go.

My government and parties that look for my vote here, support violence and it's necessity. Violence is a part of human existence since the world was created.

My problem in the north is that violence did not just begin with the IRA. It had a cause and instigation and inevitability. There were those who had the power to prevent it happening and they spurned their responsibilities.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949258#Comment_121949258

Nobody is asking you to accept anything. You keep doing what you are doing.

Bobson Dugnutt

Are SF saying the tricolour shouldn’t have been placed on McAuley’s coffin because he murdered a Guard, or because he beat and stabbed his wife?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949437#Comment_121949437

Only thing you can be sure of around here Bobson is they'd be dammed if they did and dammed if they didn't.

gormdubhgorm

In my opinion SF won't ever form a government until -

1) They give up the Republican pantomime mindset -

Stop dancing on pins for the sake of "the struggle". This includes the flag waving triumphalism seen at electoral venues, stopping this silly refusal to say the name of both states they suppose to represent etc. I believe Saorstát Éireann (The Free State) stopped using the term "Six Counties" around 1930's and early 1940's. When SF "grow up" they too will reach the same cross roads. That to me will be the first "sign" SF accept the reality of the situation visa vie NI and ROI.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/why-sinn-fein-will-not-call-the-state-by-its-name-1.4182195 (paywall)

https://1ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fireland%2Firish-news%2Fwhy-sinn-fein-will-not-call-the-state-by-its-name-1.4182195 (paywall removed)

From the above:

"In a long blog post on the An Phoblacht website after the poll, party chairman Declan Kearney referred to the Republic as the "Southern State" 

"In her column in An Phoblacht, Sinn Féin deputy leader Michelle O'Neill described the Republic as the "26 counties", while party activist Michael Doyle - the election agent of Waterford TD David Cullinane - exclaimed that "we broke the bastards. We broke the Free State" in a now notorious "Up the 'Ra" video that was posted online."

"The linguistic contortions extend to the party’s more mild-mannered housing spokesman Eoin Ó Broin. In his book Home: Why Public Housing is the Answer, he calls the Republic “Southern Ireland” - the same name given by the British to the shortlived entity which was created as a result of the Government of Ireland Act (1920) as a counterpoint to Northern Ireland."

--

2) Stop using Republican Pejoratives - A cohort of SF and SF support will have to stop using terms such as "West Brit ", "Partitionist" and so on.

https://www.thejournal.ie/sinn-fein-west-brits-2343586-Sep2015/

From the Sinn Fein website -

https://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/15215

Which linked an article 1988 SDLP/SF talks -

https://www.sinnfein.ie/files/2009/SF_SDLP_talks.pdf

From the above article - "Sinn Féin is totally opposed to a power-sharing Stormont assembly and states that there cannot be a partitionist solution. Stormont is not a steppingstone to Irish unity. We believe that the SDLP's gradualist theory is therefore invalid and seriously flawed."

There was a SF McDonald Burger controversy. Not Mary Lou!

https://www.thejournal.ie/mcmor-mcdonalds-sinn-fein-partitionist-2307837-Sep2015/

From the above -

A SINN FÉIN politician has accused McDonald’s of “partitionism” for only making its new “Irish” burger available in the Republic. West Tyrone MLA Barry McElduff criticised the fast food chain yesterday after it confirmed that the limited-edition McMór burger will not be sold in Northern Irish outlets. “It is not ‘mór go leor’ because it does not incorporate the six counties. If it’s available in Letterkenny, then it should be available in Omagh,” 

The reality is there are two SF party's with two distinct polices which could be ironically called "partitionist". Which Eamonn McCann pointed out in 2012.

https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/sinn-fein-split-in-party-policy-549683-Aug2012/

Yet SF somehow have to stay with the pretence for appearances that they are the only "All Ireland Party" and not two parties with two leaders, with two very distinct approaches in policy. All while refusing to say either name of any State they represent.

3) Sinn Fein needs a clear identity beyond Republicanism -

This leads on from the last point. We saw in the recent referendum's how SF tried to be cute calling for a YES/YES in the two recent Family and Care referendum's. And tried to hedge their bets by saying before the Referenda. Stating if it does not pass they would make the changes as originally recommended by the citizen's assembly. In doing so SF looked indecisive and weak. They lost any political capital they could have gained if they campaigned for NO/NO like their former party member Peadar Tobin TD.

SF are supposed to be the party of "change" "ant-establishment" the main opposition party - yet they went with the government. As a "safe" political ploy.

SF have tried to jump on the "housing" bandwagon. But the construction Ireland website paints a different picture.

https://www.constructionireland.ie/construction-news/295244/sinn-f-in-slammed-over-dublin-housing-objections

"Sinn Féin has objected to, voted against, or attempted to hinder at least 11,687 homes from being built in Dublin city since 2018, new figures have revealed."

There is now the question whether SF has missed it's chance on the housing issue. Mary Lou has promised to bring down the price of housing after the next election.

https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2023/12/21/has-sinn-feins-advantage-on-housing-hit-a-speed-bump/ (original article with paywall)

https://1ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fpolitics%2F2023%2F12%2F21%2Fhas-sinn-feins-advantage-on-housing-hit-a-speed-bump%2F (paywall removed)

However, as pointed out by the Irish times this could backfired, even if she did succeed.

"There are about 1.8 million permanent private households in the country; over 1.2 million are owned by their occupier, either outright or with a mortgage. Very likely many of these householders agree – as some polling suggests – that house prices need to fall. But not all of them, probably. And of those who do, you can imagine some residual nervousness when Sinn Féin talks of its determination to bring down the value of their principal asset.

People’s attitudes to housing are not always consistent. For example, they want to see more houses built and the housing crisis solved. But they might not want huge housing developments built near them, as the multifarious objections to housing developments everywhere demonstrate. Sometimes politicians have managed to effortlessly straddle the gap between berating the Government for its failure to build more houses, and objecting to individual housing developments. There is not much evidence that voters are averse to this apparent contradiction; many of them share it themselves.

So wanting house prices in general to come down, but at the same time being alarmed at plans to bring down the price of your own house – this may well be the private position of many voters."

4) All Republican's who took part in the troubles will have had to have died off -

The reality is SF are never going to be rid of their narrow Republican mindset which plays well in NI, but does not sell as well in the ROI. There is too many with a lot of history and baggage. Those are not able to remove themselves from their "proud history" and it ties them to the "Republican Triumphalism". If people with such a mindset and history are still hanging around, there is always the possibly of links with organised crime such as Dowdall etc. Those who Gerry Adams would refer to as "Good Republican's" have to be no more.

The SF objective to get power in Dail Eireann will mean the sidelining of figures who are currently celebrated and lauded in NI, and the boarder counties of the the ROI. But they are caught between two stools because of it. As for most of the ROI in this day and age, such people with that type of baggage and history are not people that are good for political optics.

Quin_Dub

##Mod Note##

All,

The topic here is Sinn Fein and their prospects/options at the next Election.

Dissecting 50 years of PIRA and or SF in the North has been covered ad-infinitum in this and other threads.

Let's move on shall we?

Thank you

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949613#Comment_121949613

How arrogant is that? You won't get into government until you conform to what 'I' want you to be.

SF will get into government when the people decide, not you.

agoodusername

To go back to the prospect of them actually forming a government, with the way polls are going SF will find doing almost impossible without FF.

As things stand, they'd probably need every single non FF/FG TD bar maybe a small handful of the most "interesting" independents. Even then, I imagine that their ability to actually pass any meaningful legislation would be limited by such a unique and unstable coalition.

What would they have to concede to form a government with FF? Would Mary Lou be willing to accept a deal involving a rotating Taoiseach again? I'm not confident enough to predict anything, except that it won't be a SF/FG coalition.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949613#Comment_121949613

That is a very long, but excellent post.

In essence, what you are saying is that in order to get into government, Sinn Fein, to be appealing to the likes of Fianna Fail as a coalition party, or, in the longer term, to command a sufficiently large vote to lead a coalition, will need to ditch the rhetoric of the past, the adoration of the past and actually come up with some workable policies etc.

It is a reasonable point and I think you are correct.

Has anyone yet been able to figure out how Sinn Fein are going to build more houses? At the moment, with Labour promising millions of houses out of thin air, it seems that the opposition parties can't think straight at all.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121948857#Comment_121948857

Mark, if McGuinness and the top structures of the IRA were so riddled with informers and agents, how critical are you of the British state for allowing it to continue.

#Deleted cause of mod telling us to move on….

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949437#Comment_121949437

I thought it was clear.

McAuley murdering a serving Garda doing his duty was ok and indeed was somewhat respected and praised for the act in Republican circles.

But beating up his wife was not OK.

Go figure.

This is SF logic we are trying to untangle.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950302#Comment_121950302

I think FG are playing a bit of a blinder here in retrospect.

It was clear that Leo was bored, and out of energy (cant really blame him) and him moving on gives them a chance to redefine themselves.

And let's be clear, FG shouldn't be and won't be in the next government, but what it does is put Simon Harris with

a) Experience as Taoiseach

b) Main opposition leader, ready to take strips of any would-be SF-led government.

c) At only 37 he will be 42 at the next-next election, where he can lead a revitalised FG into government with bigger numbers

d) IF its SF-FF-others, there will be no alternative but him, and people will see how useless SF really are.

SF will be lucky to get 30% of the vote in the next GE and will be about the mid-high 20's I think, so will need FF and others to go into government.

SF, FF, SD, Labour, Indos?

Hmm, not that stable and FF will extract a very very high price for doing a deal.

And the mere fact that SF numbers are falling so rapidly when they have not had 1 day in office running the ship speaks volumes of them getting found out after years and years of sitting on a ditch and having no opinion or conviction on anything.

It worked for a while, but they started to treat the electorate like fools. They have been given notice and even I noticed a shift on social media over the last year, where SF could do no wrong circa 2020-2023, now the online treatment is very different. They are seen just as establishment as Labour, FF, FG, Greens and so on, and SF has always prided themselves as anti-Establishment.

So what are they really? What is their vision of change for Ireland?

Shouting and roaring on the airwaves and in the Dail? People have gotten very tired of that same ol cheap trick. They want solutions, not the same faces shouting and roaring.

FF are another worry, but oddly Michael Martin is their best asset but he isn't that well-liked by the party of their core vote.

The locals will tell a lot and it could be panic stations.

FG have made their move, what will FF do?

Could SF move MLMD out? She has been off it the past year or so. Peaked too early.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950789#Comment_121950789

Another masterclass by a party that is down 10 TD's and counting?
It's all a cunning plan led by Simon Harris?

Does not compute really.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121950789#Comment_121950789

Sinn Fein's vote could be anything from 15% to 32%, hard to tell this far out. If they get their fairytale promises right, with some credible numbers behind them, then it is possible.

But every month another 1,000 young people buy a house and move away from Sinn Fein.

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949613#Comment_121949613

Superb post.

The reality is that SF are two distinct parties North and South, pandering to two distinct electorates and consequently having two distinct policies, Republican in one and socialist in the other.

Absolutely laughable that their supporters would accuse people who are happy with the status quo of the two states of being partitionist, when they are the biggest partitionists going.

There is zero chance that in pursuit of forming a government before or after the next GE that a UI will be front and central in their policies.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121951475#Comment_121951475

Nobody is 'accusing'. If you actively seek to maintain partition, are happy that partition happened then you are a partitionist. Basic English.

pureza

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121951518#Comment_121951518

Or you just don't believe or are disinterested in unity ,low down in priorities etc

I think thats sad but Why must we always label,it's the wrong kind of engagement needed to persuade the disinterested

jh79

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121951518#Comment_121951518

British SF actively maintain partition on a daily basis as part of a proxy British government, therefore they are partitionist. Basic English.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949437#Comment_121949437

no they came out and said it shouldn’t of happened….
better off leaving the others links with him in the history books

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121951475#Comment_121951475

What we see online is just a tired old run book been rehashed for years now, at this stage it’s very easy to spot and it hasn’t changed.
Calling people “partionist” and “westbrit” etc is just a form of online abuse. We have “boot licker” as well now which the SF supporters have figured out boards will allow so gets used all the time

As I posted already this is used to attack a poster, if the poster reacts they run to mods to get them banned.
It’s another example of how pathetic the Sinn Fein online supporters group are, ignore them. If they had any cop on they would realise the party they support is the worst at trying to put people into brackets and then making fun of them

then they talk about a United Ireladn? They are the biggest reason Ireland will never be United. Incompetent party from top to bottom.