Sinn Fein and how do they form a government dilemma

Bobson Dugnutt

I think they are starting to realise that running a political party with the same structures as a former terrorist organisation probably isn’t optimal in a mature democracy.

wazzzledazzle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122241177#Comment_122241177

What do you think their approach will be over the coming next few months?

Will they continue to shoutdown the governmet on the usual topics? or take a more nuanced pragmatic approach on a plan to fix what is currently wrong?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122241211#Comment_122241211

Will they continue to shoutdown the government on the usual topics? 

I disagree with the now tired trope about opposition shouting down the government.(it is how government supporters have always portrayed the opposition) Easy criticism IMO.

But I think they will focus on the abiding and still present issues facing the country.

I agree with Paschal Donohue this AM that LE's are a different ballgame with regard to 'national issues'.

Eaten bread will soon be forgotten as it was in 2019. Voters are in a chaotic mood, all to play for still.

squonk

Being shouty isn’t a good look any more. It might have looked like proactive opposition for a while when they were on 36% but it started to get old really quick and the unfortunate thing is that being at 36% also caused a lot of focus on the party and their policies. As a potential senior government partner in waiting it’s to be expected. Now people realise the dots don’t really join up in their policies. At 12% and with shaky policies, shouting and roaring at the government across the Dail chamber doesn’t look great. Now they need to go away and put their heads together sbd come back with credible policies that have been properly researched. That won’t happen in time for the next GR however. There is also a degree of arrogance about some of the main personalities, Mary Lou and O’Broin in particular. They have some real homework to do now. The dog ate it won’t cut it with the electorate this time around.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122241144#Comment_122241144

I don't think they'll want to run any by-elections to be honest.

They'd likely lose them which hits momentum - Putting all the focus on 2 or 3 by-elections where you have just removed your strong candidate would not be a winning strategy by the Government.

No by-elections , early Budget , October/November Election.

wazzzledazzle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122241232#Comment_122241232

But that's the thing though, it's not tired trope. SF were getting my vote(for the first time) up until i got pi!!ed off with them every single week shouting and hollering in the Dail without offering tangible solutions.

I voted FF in EU and SD in LE only reason being the SD were the only one who bothered their bollox to knock on my door and tell me what they'd do in my locality.

I, like the majority, have no party allegiance, and have the cop on to understand when i am being spoofed.

Bobson Dugnutt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122241248#Comment_122241248

I’m not sure Doherty has any other mode apart from shouting mode.

I’m not sure McDonald has any other mode apart from her condescending and patronising “Trinity Debating Society” mode.

I’m not sure Ó Broin is the same. He’s a bit smug and speaks very slowly in interviews so the great unwashed lumpenproletariat can understand his messaging. You get the vibe he’d be more at home sitting with Murphy and debating some obscure piece of Marxist theory.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122241279#Comment_122241279

The problem for SF is that barring a United Ireland they have absolutely no consistency as regards policy.

A UI is simply not a major priority for most people - It's an aspirational goal for a lot of people , but it's not the decisive reason for picking Party A over Party B when it comes to elections.

They have bounced guard-rail to guard-rail over the last 5+ years trying to find the frankly non existent "sweet-spot" that keeps their traditional voters happy whilst winning them new support.

They are very much the definition of the old saying "You can fool some of the people all of the time , all of the people some of the time but you can't fool all of the people all of the time".

SF are currently in the process of exiting their "fooling all of the people some of the time" phase.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122241279#Comment_122241279

For the record, I would be a natural supporter of SD's myself, but they offer no credible way to end the FF/FG hold on power, which is my goal.
Rory Hearne got my no 1. in the EU but they don't stand candidates here in the LE and the GE. So not an option.

IMO in terms of doing the duty of an opposition (of which performances in the Dáil chamber are only a part) SF did well holding Government to account across all the committees etc and in the Dáil as did other opposition parties. If you only look at leaders questions then you would be making a rash judgement IMO, all of them use those occasions to try score points and play to the gallery.

twinytwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122241177#Comment_122241177

Nothing to do with them rubbish in opposition? Or Mary Lou telling the country they would re run the referendum if we voted no?… i mean i could go on.

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122241177#Comment_122241177

I started a thread on Leo fully a year before he resigned calling for him to go and he eventually did the right thing, and I was definitely a supporter.

I don't suppose you'll be doing the same for ML even though she's clearly a liability at this stage?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058286205/leo-has-lost-his-lustre

wazzzledazzle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122241322#Comment_122241322

It's not only the Dail, i'll use Paul Gavan for example in debates leading up to the Elections. Whilst most advised of what they had achieved, or what they would do, this guy was bleeting on about how the government didn't do this that or the other.

People want solutions. They can make there own mind up on how the government is or has performed.

Offer solutions, costed, tangible and be honest. It's not difficult.

If they don't change tack, they'll get the same result come GE time.

FWIW, I do think they'll cop on to themselves somewhat and change their approach

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122241327#Comment_122241327

Nothing to do with them rubbish in opposition?

Could you outline what it is you expect an opposition to achieve or do?
And maybe give an example of an Irish one that has functioned 'properly'?

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122241368#Comment_122241368

You calmly and reasonably set out what you'd do differently and be prepared to defend that policy with costed and rational arguments.

Not 'i was talking to a woman who can't sleep at night' over every single issue.

It was famously said once that anger is not a policy, SF still haven't gotten that memo.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122241368#Comment_122241368

I think it would not be unfair to say that SF did half the job of Opposition reasonably well.

An opposition has to hold the government to account and challenge the things they are doing , this bit SF did an OK job on albeit a bit shouty and lacking in depth.

The other role of opposition is to offer viable alternatives and this is where SF have failed in a significant manner , their inability to pick a policy and stick with it has come back to haunt them as people simply have no faith in them.

And the closer we get to a General election the less important the former and the more important the latter becomes and their weakness in putting forth a consistent viable alternative is hurting them more and more as the clock ticks down.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122241346#Comment_122241346

The government haven't taken votes from SF though.
Independents did, and they have achieved nothing yet.

People do want solutions, and I don't agree that SF have offered none. They have, you may find them dishonest etc but they have solutions.
For this election on LE issues the people have decided to take their punt on Idependents, SF's LE vote is up and the government parties are down.

Whatever about SF that rag tag of independents will quickly disappoint the electorate as they can effectively be ignored.

Bobeagleburger

As ridiculous as SF are now it's a bit premature for ott comments on their demise.

It was an election for councillors who are a waste of space imo, and control next to no policies that are important for most people.

The real proof on SFs standing with the electorate will come at GE time. They recovered really well last time from a similar position (maybe even worse).

There'll be a lot of people with egg on the their faces after the next GE imo, and I say that as one of Mary Lou"s biggest critics.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122241428#Comment_122241428

Ahh I see this is the PR angle MLMD is trying and now the online army

Desperation.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122241368#Comment_122241368

The party whose comrades have great experience robbing banks and blowing a province to pieces ( 19,000 bombs) should, if they wish to go in to government in a democratic country, know what an opposition should do or have done.

Mary Lou should have known by now. She was best friends with Biden when he was over. Bet he, being a friend of Israel, is not best friends with her now? Incidentally, I think of the 3 return trips (at least) she is know to have taken to America in the Spring - one a few weeks before Paddies Day, one a few weeks after that, and then one to Boston recently. Did you hear if she went economy class?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122241423#Comment_122241423

That's what they will concentrate on, getting the message out on what their specific solutions and policy is.

I think they didn't fight back strongly enough on the hysterics about them changing tack on 'open borders' for instance. The track record was there, MLMD was saying the exact same thing on open borders in 2007 as the party is now. That got lost in what was frankly, orchestrated hysterics (echoed here) over what Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire said.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122241435#Comment_122241435

Whilst I think they will do better in the GE than they have this time out there is absolutely no question that the trend is downward in terms of their support.

They also genuinely seem to struggle with Election strategy here - That's 3 Elections in a row now where they have gotten the candidate/vote management strategy badly wrong.

The major sticks to beat the Government are beginning to trend in their favour making it a harder sell for SF over the next 4/5 months until a likely Election.

Larbre34

SF will be doing very well to alter their policy stances very substantially in just 4 months, certainly not enough to convince the wedge of voters who they need to convince.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122241479#Comment_122241479

Couple of things there:
The Ireland Thinks survey of exiting voters shows an interesting bit of information:

However the survey also showed just how volatile Irish politics has become, with almost half of voters only making up their mind in the week of polling. 

This finding won't be missed either:

The survey also suggested deficiencies in its campaign, with 18% of voters saying they had met a Sinn Fein candidate compared to 34% for Fine Gael and 35% for Fianna Fail.

The strategy of running too many candidates I think is just one of those things, the decision was taken way back and it was dammed if you do, dammed if you don't. Any strategy can fail if half the electorate is only making it's mind up in the last week.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122241435#Comment_122241435

Councillors are not a waste of space. In reality they do the majority of the work in keeping voters. Our biggest issue is having Independent TD's who are just overpaid councillors because they have no interest in policies or the good of Ireland.

SF fired out, in my area anyway, a group of strangers. Nobody knew them and they had no links in the community, I posted at the time it wasn't going to be a success.

Sf problem now is MLMD going around doing interviews which will have an affect on the long term election

Plus people have seen SF behind all the noise is a bt of a rabble, so again people will start looking at their policies. MLMD saying the policies need to be changed also highlighted this, once you look at the policies then you see the total incompetence from the party.

Plus will they get the revolt vote, doesn't look like it, so they won't pick up random TD's that nobody had any idea who they are because they didn't want to vote for other parties. Plenty of those in last election like Violet Anne. People won't get bitten again with that.

Will they do better? they could

Will they win the election? I doubt it. Remember all the fake online accounts in reality break down to one person and one vote

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122241542#Comment_122241542

Fair points , but they don't seem to be learning from the strategy mistakes.

Will they up their up their "ground game" sufficiently to make a difference?

They ran too many candidates in 2019 , too few in 2020 , too many this time out - What chances that they get a fright and make the wrong call again in a few months time?

As I said , Electoral strategy does not appear to be their strong point.

TBF , SF have only been trying to be a "big party" for the last 4/5 election cycles (of all kinds) whereas FF and FG have a century of experience in running a strong nationwide ground game and here with PR-STV that need to be at least palatable to everyone means the ground game matters a lot.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122241573#Comment_122241573

Even two months out from closing nominations date, who would have forseen the amount of independents running. Or the boost those independents got from the focus on immigration in the media.

On such things the worm turns as they say.

I don't think putting people out on the campaign trail, meeting people and being visible is that big a challenge tbh. If they want it, it should come easy.
If they don't learn well they will reap what they sow.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122241573#Comment_122241573

SF have had five decades to figure out PR-STV in Northern Ireland - introduced in 73 for the Sunningdale assembly and for locals.

They appear to be unable to handle it when transfers don't generally go solidly on sectarian lines.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122241573#Comment_122241573

They didn't run too many in 20219, in the likes of DCC they right got kicked out because of their awful record

THey have been next to useless in most county councils and running a load of nobodies this time who have done nothing in the community was never going to end up well.

Even in our area of all the people going for it, including a few independents you could pick out the few actively engaged in the community and helping people, none of them from SF

In terms of 2020, the too few I have yet to see backup, the claim made by many is Green Party got in because of SF transfers, when someone done actual analyse this was found to be incorrect.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122241178#Comment_122241178

Worked alright for FF and FG back at the foundation of the state

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122241079#Comment_122241079

The problem with the hospital are multiple. The decisions to close 3 emergency units ( Ennis, Nenagh and St Johns) and squeeze them into a constricted site was managments. Government give a budget and tge HSE manages that budget.

Another issue with Limerick is the budget is controlled from Galway ( or used to be anyway). This starved Limerick of funds for a period between 4 and 10 years ago. However it seems to get adequate funds at present. Triageing patients is an issue. Significant amount of bed blockers. My wife had an elderly single relative in there for 12+weeks after a minor stroke. She was finally moved to a nursing home a fortnight ago.

Patients not needing tier one care should be redirected to St Johns, Ennis and Nenagh and moved on from there again. However lack of beds and space is an issue. There is definitely vested interests holding up progress there as well I imagine. Its had to believe tge sane CEO has been in charge of tge hospital all this time