Sinn Fein and how do they form a government dilemma

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121194317#Comment_121194317

Exactly, Ireland is a very successful country, with some problems. These problems are also shared with many other countries, Canada, Germany, NZ, Aus etc all have issues with housing supply. Of course there has been a certain narrative that Ireland is the most corrupt kip in the world etc. Irish governments have been really good at the macro stuff, EU, Brexit, FDI etc. Where they really struggle is anything that involves getting their employees to do something they were not doing yesterday. Basically anything that involves the efficient delivery of a resource in short supply. This will be the same with any government really since it is a cultural issue in the state sector.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121194339#Comment_121194339

Well whatever about it be the 'most corrupt kip' there have been glaring cases of corruption again and again and the coalition has been willing to turn a blind eye.

If you don't take these things on board don't be surprised if the electorate move away from you.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121194349#Comment_121194349

What would be the glaring cases of corruption?

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2023/01/31/ireland-enters-top-10-of-countries-seen-as-having-least-public-corruption-index-suggests/

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121194206#Comment_121194206

But if you accept that how can you claim that

I really can't see a SF/FF government as SF do not do compromise 

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121194382#Comment_121194382

Plenty of them covered here in planning, housing and SIPO returns issues. Not really the topic of the thread to go down that road.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121194470#Comment_121194470

Well specific examples? Were SF also not caught up in under declarations? That's before you even get into the issue of them using UK rules for donations so that they can receive millions, which is against the rules here. Are they an Irish or a British party? Seems to depend on the situation.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121194504#Comment_121194504

Did I say anything about SF not being caught?

You seem to know all about SF but know nothing of the multiple exposures of FF and FG issues with planning housing and SIPO regs.

Ok, done here. I get where you are coming from.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121194541#Comment_121194541

I am merely pointing out the potential replacement, by any measure, is far worse. There will never be a government completely free of rule breaking or bad behavior, but at least FG try to do something about (Maria Bailey dropped for example).

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121194586#Comment_121194586

But you don't know what you are comparing them to. You just asked for examples that has been constantly uncovered through the lifetime of this government. From Niall Collins to the Taoiseach (being investigated again, apprently) by the regulatory authority his and FF's governments will not give the requisite powers to, despite being repeatedly asked to.

Up the yard now with pronouncements like that.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121194541#Comment_121194541

So SF are corrupt?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121194613#Comment_121194613

Conversation was around the statement 'this is a corrupt kip'

I merely said that nothwithstanding that phrase (I have never used by the way) there are corruption issues here

SF have issues with TD's obeying rules.

So do FG, FF etc.

Has anyone called FG corrupt, or FF corrupt.

Certainly not me, but corruption exists in those party's.

Are they worse than anyone else...jury is out on that. But the fact that they have along with FF refused to give the regulatory body adequate powers suggests they are not interested in stopping what corruption there is.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121194349#Comment_121194349

Ireland isn't perfect.

But it is one of the wealthiest nations on earth, with one of the highest standards of living & has one of the best education systems in the world.

It has full employment, an amazing amount of highly paid job opportunites and some of the highest average salaries and highest social welfare payments & benefits on the planet.

Crime is very low by global standards & for the vast majority of the countries population, whom are housed in private accomodation, our residents enjoy an excellent standard of living.

We also have one of the highest domestic saving rates in the world, with almost 150 billion held on deposit for a population of just over 5 million people.

Yep, Ireland isn't perfect.

But the majority of the population are better off here than they would be in 99.9% of other countries across the globe.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121194268#Comment_121194268

SF has about the same competence as the SNP in Scotland. One can argue if more, or less, but it's at the same level. One can guess what to expect if they are in office.

Luckily they would not be alone in government, - at least looking at current polls. Or worse they would be in office with the Greens and other smaller parties on the left....

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121194691#Comment_121194691

My concern is to see the FF FG power swap ended. It is no longer healthy and just how cynical it was, was exposed when they practically merged to continue in power.

I agree and have said it before, a spell in a proper coalition would do SF no harm and if it is a coalition of respect I have no issue with it. I think if they approached it properly, it might a good thing ultimately for FF.

Galwayguy35

So say this coalition with FF happens I wonder would MacDonald agree to a rotating Taoiseach.

I'd say Martin would be as excited as a kid on Christmas morning at the prospect of that and he was open to the idea of coalition when intervied in the count centre just after being elected but then next day completly dismissed the idea.

I think he might have a problem selling the idea of a coalition with SF to his foot soldiers though and quite a few of them want him gone after the next election.

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121194541#Comment_121194541

Denial, deflection, whataboutery and dismissal all in the one post.

You'd have been better off just saying ouch, it would give you far more respect.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121195233#Comment_121195233

We were discussing whether the ‘place was a corrupt kip’.

I said that while I never used that phrase, there was many cases of corruption.

I was asked for examples.

I directed poster to where he/she would find them as it was off topic.

I didn’t claim at any point that there were no examples of SF corruption.

Then the poster suddenly did have examples …..of one party.

Now here you are after I clearly said there are examples of SF doing it claiming I am deflecting from something or denying.

You must have reading/comprehension issues.

Dont Be at It

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121194705#Comment_121194705

Cynical? Was it not pretty much the only option to get a functioning government in place? Alternative would have been no government...Hmm, is there anywhere else nearby where this has happened recently?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121196413#Comment_121196413

When the leader of one party to that coalition was telling the public that he would never do it...yes, 'cynical' is the only takeaway for me. You are free to make allowances if you wish.

P.S. That same leader by the way opened the door to a coalition with another party when he thought his party would be the bigger one, when it emerged his party were not going to win the predicted seats he shut that door again.

Claiming there was the prospect of 'no government' is bogus too. There were options, he just, cynically, didn't want to consider them. IMO that was because he would not have been entitled to the Taoiseach post first had FF been the smaller party in the coalition.

Dont Be at It

What were these other options? It was either a coalition with fine gael or Sinn fein. His comments about not going in with FG were pre-election - circumstances obviously changed with the outcome of the election.

Fianna fail won the most seats in the last election. He was well entitled to expect to be Taoiseach in any negotiations.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121196607#Comment_121196607

You were the one who claimed there were 'no options'.

There clearly were other options, as the elections results were coming in and it looked like FF were going to get more seats over and above the extra one they got by dint of the Ceann Comhairle's automatic re-election.

SF and FF were technically on the same number of seats in the election, so I reckon the door was shut as Martin realised he had no 'moral' claim to be Taoiseach first.

Dont Be at It

Fianna fail didn't want to go into government with Sinn fein hence there was no other workable option apart from Fine Gael. Don't kid yourself - Sinn Fein were nowhere close to being ready for government last time out.

The quality of some of their elected TDs were truly awful. If they were honest, even SF would admit they were astonished at some of their candidates that got through. Even some of their front line TDs are of really poor quality. Also they were still a fully blown protest party back then. You could still argue that, however they are reining in a lot of their policies towards the centre ground ahead of the next GE.

Hypothetically if ff did choose to go in with sf last time, why would Martin have no moral claim to be Taoiseach? He'd have just as much a claim if not more than Mary Lou. 🤣

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121196776#Comment_121196776

I reckon he felt he would not win the debate about who would be first.

He knew that if that came out - that he pulled out of a coalition for selfish reasons that that would finish him, so rather than risk it, he shut the door.

Just my opinion. You are entitled to yours as to what kind of coalition partner SF might have been.

Dont Be at It

Seems like you're doing an awful lot of assuming and guessing to get to the outcome you want, but as you say we're all entitled to our opinions.👍

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121196860#Comment_121196860

Based on the facts of what occurred.

Your opinion seems to ignore the facts, i.e. when, in the eyes of seasoned political writers 'Martin opened the door' there was other options. It was Martin himself that shut the door on that option. Nobody else.

My speculation relates to why that might have been.

Dont Be at It

"Based on the facts of what occurred". But your assumptions aren't facts.

What opinion of mine is ignoring the facts? 🤣 All I've said is Fianna fail didn't want to go into coalition with Sinn Fein which is categorically correct. So the only alternative was forming one with FF. You could say that he did the country a service by forming a government with a party in which he didn't really want to do so with. This at a time when the country was after entering a monumental crisis in the shape of the Covid pandemic.

Again, you say he "cynically, didn't want to consider them". Have you considered that maybe, just maybe Sinn Fein was the problem in the room when it came to coalition talks last time out.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121196953#Comment_121196953

Even PBP were reduced to writing an open letter to SF calling for talks.

There was never any serious effort from SF to enter coalition talks with anyone.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121196953#Comment_121196953

But Martin said they would 'never' go into a coalition with FG, but did. FG expressed happiness to sit in opposition, but went into coalition.

So, given that everyone (not in denial) familiar with political speak over the decades, recognised the door being opened to a coalition with SF, we have to look at why he backed away from the 'option'.

Those ^ are the facts.

After that you can speculate and so can I.

Dont Be at It

Your first sentence there followed up by claiming familiarity with political speak is quite comical! 😅

"those are the facts"

Pretty much by definition none of the comment you alude to there is Fact. Recognising political speak is very clearly a subjective exercise... As can be seen by your first sentence.. 🤣.

Previous comment above yours has it correct. Sinn fein had zero interest in going into government.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121197153#Comment_121197153

It is a 'fact' that political writers recognised what Martin said as 'opening the door' to a coalition with SF.

It is a 'fact' that Martin said he would 'never' form a coalition with FG.

Both as we know (another fact) turned out to be political speak..sleeveen politics at it's finest.

All of the above opinion can be arrived at whether SF were serious or not.

Would they have been serious about coalescing with PBP or a ragtag left coalition...probably not in my opinion.

Coalescing with a decent programme for government with FF? I think that was possible, like it will be after the next GE.