Sinn Fein and how do they form a government dilemma

pureza

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121546882#Comment_121546882

I'm not ignoring the other fools supporting it,noone is

In the context of this thread,more mis steps like that particular vote in my opinion takes Sinn Féin further away from government than closer

I'd say they all know it

For fecks sake,Helen McEntee actually rose in popularity 😂

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121546905#Comment_121546905

Ah, they are all fools?

Ok.

Field east

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121546833#Comment_121546833

I have no problem in FF and FG hating eachother as long as they both continue to cooperate / work together at the level which existed in the previous government re C and S and in the current government. Those two gov had to deal with very challenging/ UNPRECIDENTED events and managed them fairly well.

pureza

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121546949#Comment_121546949

Well yes,if I'm saying Sinn Féin were foolish to support that no confidence motion, You'd hardly expect me to say others supporting it were geniuses now would you?

See I like to be reasonably consistent in my posts

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121547047#Comment_121547047

I stand by my contention that the 'hate' is a comfortable hidey hole for two parties that are essentially the same and who are happy as long as power is swapped between them or that they can coalesce to maintain it.

It will be interesting if not fascinating to see how they present themselves for the next GE.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121547074#Comment_121547074

And I am long enough watching politics to know, that this one is not over by a long shot.

My view would be that McEntee is a dead minister walking tbh. She will either be moved or have her slender grip on the office severed by another crisis/revelation/wrong move. The fact FF TD's had to be whipped into supporting her after publicly criticising her is telling.

We'll see.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/fianna-fail-tds-and-senators-say-position-of-justice-minister-is-untenable/a1311485234.html#:~:text=Another%20TD%20weighed%20in%2C%20saying,yesterday%20morning%20were%20also%20criticised.

Working class heroes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121547086#Comment_121547086

There you go with your swap nonsense again.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121547126#Comment_121547126

I don't agree it is nonsense to use a perfectly apt word to describe what happened here since independence. I am not alone in this, others use the word too. Just a quick trip to goggle confirms that.

Fine Gael and Fianna Fail have dominated Irish politics and have for decades swapped power between them during elections.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/biggest-challenges-facing-fianna-fail-and-fine-gael-is-setting-themselves-apart-experts/39319625.html

Fine Gael and Fianna Fail have never governed together, swapping power since they emerged from opposing sides of Ireland’s 1920s civil war.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/6/15/ireland-fine-gael-fianna-fail-and-greens-strike-coalition-deal

pureza

Yeah like now we have Francie looking at obscure Al jazeera articles from that bastion of democracy Qatar to defend the lie he's perpetuating about parties power swapping

There are no depths I suppose when credibility is shot

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121547339#Comment_121547339

Here's another:

the two dominant parties have swapped power throughout the nation's history 

https://www.voanews.com/a/europe_historic-irish-rivals-strike-government-deal-seek-third-partner/6187540.html

Here's another (now a Gov Minister and member of one of the duopoly) describing what we had as a 'duopoly', A duopoly being something that controls the market.

The Irish political system has operated as a duopoly from day one although, unlike similar countries like the US and the UK, Irish voters don’t see much difference between the choices.

IRISH POLITICS HAS FAILED TO MODERNISE

https://www.macgillsummerschool.com/irish-politics-has-failed-to-modernise/

The MacGill Summer School is one of the most important fora in Ireland for the analysis of topics of national and international interest.

I can post more if you still believe I am unique in calling what happened a 'swapping of power'. But I think the point is made.

Bobson Dugnutt

The vote of confidence was a complete and utter fiasco for SF. They were never going to win; Mary Lou looked like a right lout making completely untrue statements about supports offered to the school, and the public were reminded about Paul Quinn being tortured to death in a shed in Monaghan, about how SF campaigned for the release of the psychopath Pierce McAuley, about how there was high ranking members of SF in a pub in Belfast when Robert McCartney had him eye removed with a screwdriver before he was sliced open from his neck to his groin, Jonathan Dowdall, about having a TD linked to at least 50 murders etc.

pureza

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121547430#Comment_121547430

That's lovely Francie

How many of those obscure, taking you weeks to find amongst the millenia of articles that don't, are using the term to say what you're saying that it was an arrangement between them for 80 years?

Or is it,a case of,clutter the thread with posts thinking you won't be reminded of the false accusation you're making?

Oh and talking about a duopoly to support uour lie without reference to the party you're 24 7 supporting here losing its deposits right left and centre out of lack of voter appeal is,we'll to put it kindly ,call out now as the greatest strawman stuff in boards history probably

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121547232#Comment_121547232

The same old broken record nonsense that ignores the facts that it is the voters who decide who gets swapped in and out. And the Irish voters have proved time and time again that they are very capable of figuring out exactly what they want and to date SF is not it.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121547494#Comment_121547494

The Irish voter had a right to expect party leaders to stand by their word. One of those told the electorate he would never coalesce with FG.

Perhaps that is why he cannot get his party out of the low teens in polling and why the leader of FG cannot do better than the last GE numbers. He told his electorate that putting FF back in charge would be like putting John Delaney back in charge of the FAI.

What did the voting public get? FF and FG together in government and a FF Minster in control of the Ministry of Finance.

Remains to be seen what the voting public will go for the next time out. One thing is clear, they are not giving either FG and FF the option of swapping power and have forced them to coalesce to stay in power.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121547486#Comment_121547486

I wasn't talking about a 'duopoly', that was FF Minister Stephen Donnelly.

pureza

No Francie,the Voter does not expect parties to stick by policies or what they say

Parties broadcast their policy and if they get an overall majority, they're expected to at least attempt to implement it

But if they don't, coalition talks begin based on the results

Your party of choice did not gain enough support in 2020 including via opposition parties to form a government

I think the better description of what happened next was,2 parties agreed what they did in preference to either of them doing a deal with your party of choice

It wasn't done lightly but it's obvious a good share of their own nay sayers have had their eyes opened to what they could have been doing all along

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121547548#Comment_121547548

So are you saying that Micheal Martin did not tell the electorate he 'would never coalesce with FG?

That Leo Varadkar did not say that 'putting FF back in charge would be like putting Delaney back in charge of the FAI'?

They broke their word, and that has nothing to do with SF.

Why you are in denial of that or why you need to point over there, escapes me. Why try to divert away?

You are quick enough to call a spade a spade with regard to others, not the governing parties though.

pureza

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121547524#Comment_121547524

You were quoting him to support your makey uppy assertion that they secretly weren't political adversaries

Whereas he was just stating a fact

Your party of choice could have given us a 3rd choice in those 80 years but they were unelectable due to their whacky policies

You're purposely ignoring your parties unelectability to continue on your farcical assertion that they weren't political enemies

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121547584#Comment_121547584

I am stating a fact as have all the others I linked to.

You cannot accept the fact that effectively what we got since independence was a swapping of power between two parties, FF and FG. Why would I need to reference other parties failures to make a simple point?

I believe that FF and FG got lazy, arrogant and comfortable because of the inevitability of this swapping. And I think that has led to a toxicity in our politics that has had negative consequences for sections of society. The behaviour in protecting each other when they were forced to coalesce is also evidence of the arrogance at the heart of both parties.

Again you try and divert and point at other parties and call them 'my' party when I didn't vote for them in a GE until 2020. I voted for this swap right up to 2016. I was a part of the problem and up until then was not advocating for any change. Kenny's government was my final straw.

pureza

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121547618#Comment_121547618

So in summary,

You make up that FF and FG have never been political enemies, have colluded all along to swap power between themselves and your evidence is a few articles that use the phrase that it took what was it 10 days for you to present and none of which support your theory vs 100's of history books,politics books and commentary saying the opposite

Francie you're a chancer

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121547772#Comment_121547772

You make up that FF and FG have never been political enemies, 

I said they were political enemies but that changed to using it as a distinguishing crutch and that eventually it was not real as it was all forgotten to allow a coalition.

 have colluded all along to swap power between themselves

It was you who introduced the idea that agreement was needed to swap power. I showed by posting dictionary definitions that this is only true if you use the word in particular contexts. As the other writers show it doesn't necessarily need collusion or agreement. That is your inference and what you seem to take offence at - your own specific meaning of the word.

Other writers/historians don't choose to use the same term...so what?

Bobson Dugnutt

SF used not recognise the legitimacy of the Irish State, its police force, or its defence forces. In fact they used to give standing ovations to murderers who took the life of Gardaí.

Parties change.

Finty Lemon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121547510#Comment_121547510

"We do not believe in government through the voting booth. The Spanish national will was never freely expressed through the ballot box." Francisco Franco

"I do not believe in government through the voting booth. The Irish national will has ever been freely expressed though the ballot box". Francisco Brady

Different colour shirt, same idea.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121547947#Comment_121547947

So where did I say any of this Finty, or are you sledgehammering my words to fit a narrative?

Field east

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121547788#Comment_121547788

Francis and Pur - both of you have gone a very long rabbit hole over this swapping issue. Looks like both of you would argue over the most insignificant of issues. There was NEVER a case of FF and FG swapping the power mantle. The reason why FF were in power as a single party gov or for that matter FG ; FG /Labour; FF/PD’s ; FF/FG /Green’s and soforth were in power at different times was because the voting public chose them through a democratic voting system - . As ML/ SF said after the last election the people of Ireland voted for change and she had the opportunity to do a ‘completely novel swop - as ye both call it- because SF had the numbers but it choose not to do so ie coming to a deal with all the left leaning parties/ individuals - SF, Labour, PBP, SD, Greens, Aontu, independant. No, ML kept on harping about FF and FG would not talk to her about forming a gov

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121548033#Comment_121548033

She certainly talked about FF and FG not wanting to talk about a coalition government because that is what actually happened.

BTW the claim was power swapped between FF and FG. It was not claimed that they colluded in this or agreed to do this. They certainly in my view became comfortable, arrogant and complacent that it was what happened. That is my view.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121546882#Comment_121546882

"Anyone that know about politic" 😂 another little comment to make out you know more about politics than other posters.

Sinn Fein le the no confidence and shouting about it all over the media. From the day Provisional Sinn Fein was sent up as the political wing of the Provisional IRA they have failed at everything,

United Ireland? Nope and not even an idea how to get to it

Protecting the nationalist community? well no the PIRA killed the most of that community.

"Tax the rich"? well to start with a 28% error and then at the same time giving the rich a tax break with the proposal to remove LPT

Alternative Budget? opp's mistakes

No confidence? embarrassing failures for years now

Incompetence.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121548521#Comment_121548521

Do you accept that not many no confidence votes succeed and it hasn’t stopped many of the states political parties calling them?

The exceptionalism when it comes to SF is striking. Same with the poster trying to maintain that their opposition was ‘unusual’. Would not post any examples when asked because they knew there are examples of oppositions saying and doing the same things.

Fairly transparent stuff tbh.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121548579#Comment_121548579

No confidence votes happened, the issue Sinn Fein have is the amount they have called in a short space of time and won none of them.

Fairly transparent the excuses you are making as well.

Incompetence at every level, that’s all you need to remember with Sinn Fein. Even the online supporters are failing and driving people away from Sinn Fein instead of bringing them to Sinn Fein.

What did Mary Lou ask them? Oh yeah stop being pig ignorant, seems she hasn’t been able to even get a handle on that. More poor leadership from a TD I had rated but the carry on post the child’s stabbing was enough for me anyway.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121549009#Comment_121549009

The list of facts I posted shows that nobody has consistently won no confidence motions. But your exceptionalism makes you invent some specialness about SF motions when the actual explanation for them is not to win them but do incremental damage to the sitting government. Politics, as it has been since party politics began to those who know politics.

No amount of deflecting to something else gets away from the fact that all oppositions have used no confidence motions this way.