Sinn Fein and how do they form a government dilemma

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121548579#Comment_121548579

What it sets up is a future opposition being able to call no confidence votes against SF with impunity, preventing other Dail debates and legislation from happening, it's the exact same traps they fall into in NI and impacts on their ability to govern.

Field east

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121548065#Comment_121548065

You are putting forward your opinion - at least that is what I think it is — as ‘ how dare that they swap power between them. So, given the figures re number of seats won by FF and FG at each election from the time that we became a sovereign state, what do you suggest FF and FG should have done ? Allow a government rainbow be formed with a number of independents helping out. Whatever government formation you might be suggesting you might suggest how long each suggested gov would last .

PS. . Keep in mind that it is the voting public that come up with the number of TDS ‘ for each party

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121550135#Comment_121550135

how dare that they swap power

Never said by me. I never criticised the voter either, I merely stated what happened here since independence.

My opinion is that a two party system were two parties know the power will simply swap between them is potentially a toxic one of arrogance and complacency. And I certainly believe that is what happened.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121550046#Comment_121550046

You will have to elaborate on that. No idea how using a statuary function of the state used numerous times before by all parties 'sets' up anything.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121550312#Comment_121550312

It honestly needs no elaboration (other posters do chime in if you think it was non-obvious as well), by abusing such a mechanism, SF have set the precedent for others to abuse it without SF being able to cry foul about it, showing their political naivety.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121550406#Comment_121550406

I get you now. Gives rise to a few questions.

Why wouldn't SF or anyone else not be able to cry foul?

It hasn't after all stopped FG, FF and GN's, who have themselves used the function on numerous occasions. crying foul whenever SF, Lab or the other opposition parties who have called these votes.

How is using a function of the state setting a 'precedent' and what is the 'abuse' bar, how many motions of No Confidence are allowed in your brave new world?

Sounds dangerously close to wanting to cutail the independence of the Dáil tbh.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121550526#Comment_121550526

See, you're explaining and trying to get into the weeds of what is and isn't allowed, this is politics, people discussing and making legislation by a process agreed upon, SF are being a bad actor in this process in calling multiple no-confidence votes (the latest one they read the room completely wrong yet persisted anyway), when others also do the same, they have nowhere to go, no moral authority to fall back on. It is bad politics and one of the areas that will hamstring them if they get into power.

Bobson Dugnutt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121549009#Comment_121549009

I really think that SF’s online zealots are starting to cost them votes at this stage. Some of the online army have gone rogue and the intense anger they display is turning normal people off.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121550825#Comment_121550825

You called it an 'abuse' and a 'precedent has been set'.

It stands to reason (unless you think No Confidence votes shouldn't be allowed at all) that you have a threshold for an opposition.

When does it become 'abuse'?

And how would you guard against this abuse?

I suggest you are delving into dangerous territory here, so I am seeking clarity on what you want to do,

I agree, we are just having a discussion.

BTW 63 Deputies voted against the Confidence in H. McEntee motion. That is 63 mandated and democratically elected TD's who had No Confidence in her, not to mention those on the Government benches who were whipped into line after expressing no confidence in her either.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121550861#Comment_121550861

I would suggest you are delving into bad territory here by defending SF in being a bad actor for common Dáil procedures (while attempting to deflect from their latest failed attempt that left the minister in a strengthened position).

Abuse of rules and procedures are one of the tactics that cause other parties not to want to go into government with SF. Again, when they cry foul at being left out, they have no one to blame but themselves for it.

This is politics 101.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121550907#Comment_121550907

Abuse of rules and procedures 

What 'abuse of rules and procedures'?

Government or you being annoyed at being called to account is not 'abuse of rules and procedures'.

Calling you out here, what 'rules' and 'procedures' specifically have been abused?

*Again...63 Deputies voted against the government motion. It was not just the Shinners therefore.

Bobson Dugnutt

The opposition vote against the government shocker.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121550929#Comment_121550929

Seemingly this is 'unprecedented' and an 'abuse' Bobson. Never heard anything as ridiculous in my times tbh.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121550922#Comment_121550922

Abuse by calling multiple failed no-confidence motions. Do you think there needs to be a limit to no confidence motions to prevent parties like SF from abusing the procedure? Why would other parties be willing to govern with a party who abuses these systems?

The GP, for example, make it quite clear they want to govern, they generally vote along government lines, they don't bring down governments on a whim and see out terms, if SF need the numbers and GP have them, they'll go in together, SF are giving parties reasons not to trust them and will then wonder why they get left out in the cold for negotiations. There is no wrong or right limit to these procedural matters, people will know when they are being abused and when they aren't, holding a no-confidence motion that strengthens the minister's position and popularity is bad usage of such a procedure (and likely thought up as a way to deflect attention for an area where SF policy is weak). You blindly defending SF in these matters highlights your own naivety at politics, your usual constant deflection replies only highlight this further. I believe most who are close politics watchers understand these procedures (I would honestly suggest you join something similar to model UN or debating to see how it works in real life and how easy it is for someone to be disruptive and the procedure to resolve it, politics only works properly with good actors).

For the TLDR, there should be no limit on such procedures, those who abuse them should be treated as bad actors and excluded from policy negotiations. If you need a number to tell you what the limit is, you're already a bad actor. If you're wondering why other parties don't deal with SF, you're actively trying to deflect on one of the reasons why thus have no moral authority to expect other outcomes.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121551143#Comment_121551143

Went the TLDR route>

So there are no rules that have been abused.

Your opinion is your own about 'abuse' so.

And yes I know others think it too. But that is still opinion, there are just as many who would have the opposite opinion.

How in the name of all that is credible is asking what your threshold is, being a 'bad actor'? Is this just some arbitrary objection you have that cannot be challenged or questioned?

Astonishing arrogance based on nothing but a dislike for accountability - something this particular government has distinguished itself in trying to avoid.

Field east

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121550307#Comment_121550307

ML ‘s very focused selling point was that the nation /voters now want a CHANGE from the tired old FF or FG or FF/FG way of running the country with their carryon of arrogance and complacency, etc, etc.. So , answer me this, why did ML not deliver on what , she said , the nation wanted. The voting public seem to be happy with the continuation of this arrogance and complacency crack. I think the voting public are a bit more nuanced than making decisions on the basis of those two words - maybe they nip it even a factor in their decision re who to vote for

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121551229#Comment_121551229

There is no arrogance, the question is how do SF form a government when a majority of TD will not be SF, abuses of procedure like calling multiple no-confidence motions where the result isn't in question lowers their ability to negotiate with other parties in the future (as well as costing them support with this latest mis-step), again, this is politics 101, any party doing this will be treated accordingly. For those that support SF, it is a sign that they may not be fit to govern effectively under their current leadership, which should be a big worry.

When SF have to compromise on big policies or end up being out of government again, people will be able to point back at actions like these and point out why.

Astonishing arrogance based on nothing but a dislike for accountability - something this particular government has distinguished itself in trying to avoid.

One would argue, that due to the number of failed no confidence motions, this has been the most accountable government. Again, you need to see the forest here, not the trees.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121551246#Comment_121551246

How many of the 'voting public' are happy?

Latest polling shows that the government parties do not command a majority.

So it's safe to say only a minority are 'happy'.

Neither of the two main parties have grown support since the last actual election either.

That is telling in itself.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121551278#Comment_121551278

Only 2, that's 2 motions, have succeeded in the history of the state Astro.

Don't be lecturing me on stuff when you refuse to take on board all the reasons why these motions are called and pretend that it is always about winning.

We have established that there are no rules abused here, because there are no rules.

Everything else is just your opinion on SF in government or not, which you are entitled to.

Field east

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121551289#Comment_121551289

Francis , you have changed the goalposts and thereby completely deflected the issue under discussion. You made the point that the two main parties SWOP POWER and that they have got very complacent and have got very arrogant . I assume that you have made your point - re timeline up to the last general election Now you are bringing in YOUR CURRENT THINKING. Voters re surveys between elections sway over and back as well as the only definitive result as to who is in gov is decided ONLY at election time. So you might park your shopping/ arrogance/ complacency thoughts until then

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121551377#Comment_121551377

You lost me, sorry.

pureza

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121551289#Comment_121551289

The electorate is quite fractured,but at 40% vs SF's 29% in the last red C combined with friendly independents,I'd say the current government would be odds on to be returned and isn't that very telling after 14 years of centrist government

It certainly explains why the mandarins of Sinn Féin are pirouetting to the centre

Sinn Féin still need enough support from other parties to work with them in the Dáil,if Sinn Féin support is static or falls again with the next set of polls,isn't that job only going to get harder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121550307#Comment_121550307

That's not what happened though

Reality is Sinn Féin existed but lost multiple deposits as did other unelectable's

Now unless they lived in fairy land,they must have known why they were unelectable

Ergo they absolved themselves from responsibility, they even refused to take seats,some of them if they had been elected

The result was just 2 government choices

There was no agreement between those 2 parties untill 2016 and nearly 90 years of abject rivalry

Some of that rivalry is barely quelled,I'd say

I would never disagree that policy wise voters wouldn't notice much difference which of them were in power

Mind you they wont if Sinn Féin succeed either

Politics isn't the art of making the impossible possible

It's the art of convincing voters that the impossible will be made possible

As I've said multiple times,only governments get tested on the latter

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121551498#Comment_121551498

The electorate is quite fractured,but at 40% vs SF's 29% in the last red C combined with friendly independents,I'd say the current government would be odds on to be returned and isn't that very telling after 14 years of centrist government

It certainly explains why the mandarins of Sinn Féin are pirouetting to the centre

Sinn Féin still need enough support from other parties to work with them in the Dáil,if Sinn Féin support is static or falls again with the next set of polls,isn't that job only going to get harder

That is an opinion/guess again. I don't know how the next election will shake out but it still remains a fact the 3 governing parties have not grown their support at all.

I have no idea of what the relevance of the second bit is. Nobody has disagreed with you on SF's electoral history.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121549102#Comment_121549102

Deflecting? isn't that what you are doing. The discussion is about the incompetence of Sinn Fein and the amount of no confidence votes they have pushed for and lost. The best you can do is "look over at them"

Standard nonsense.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121551930#Comment_121551930

I never took part in a discussion on the incompetence of SF.

You talk away about that, nothing to do with the points I was making.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121552340#Comment_121552340

You didn’t make a point, it was just deflection

Sinn Fein proclaimed they would be the best opposition ever, most incompetent opposition ever would be better description

Lets not forget they proclaimed they would build houses when they took overDCC in 2014, again total incompetence and ended up with less units than they started out wit

Only thing they seem to be able to do is submit blocks to planning to make the housing crisis worse, some might say that is incompetence as well as they claim to want to help resolve the housing crisis.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121552658#Comment_121552658

I think they have been very effective as an opposition to be honest.

They haven't gone along with the cozy power swap sham fighting and have properly attempted to call the government to account and scrutinize them.

I didn't think FF and FG and their supporters would get so angry about that, but clearly they do not like to be called to account or challenged.

And again, it is a peculiar naivete about politics that doesn't accept that there are things that don't go well for political party's, they make mistakes as well and do things wrong. It's a balance.

We can see that since the state was founded. Your exceptionalism is out on stalks again.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121553015#Comment_121553015

"I think they have been very effective as an opposition to be honest."

Well that is the surprise comment of the day

Nothing about their achievements and an attack on other political supporters. Standard Sinn Fein supporters nonsense.

I don't care if you think you know more about politics, you constantly post telling everyone you do so bang away. It's hilarious.

At this stage it's just waffle on repeat, do you have any coherent information to add on Provisional Sinn Fein?

mattser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121553037#Comment_121553037

The 300K houses are flying off the shelf in the sales 😂

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121553071#Comment_121553071

Oh did you see Eoin with his "plan"

Houses for 300-250k.....sure f**k it while throwing out numbers he should of went for 200k. We know how good Sinn Fein are with numbers....ahem lets forget the old 28% error on the "tax the rich"

So people get to "buy" a house which they can pay a mortgage on but never own the house. It will be owned by the government who will hold a stake in the house the entire time they own it. Can they leave it to their children? no the government will decide if they can/can't

F**k me as well as shutting down the media we know having Sinn Fein trying to take housing off people in Ireland. North Korea anyone?

Plus the house they are paying for can never be used as a rental?

Realy baffling sh*t to be honest. But I'm sure the Sinn Fein online supporters think this is an excellent idea.

Don't forget Eoin wrote a book 🤣