Sinn Fein and how do they form a government dilemma

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121575620#Comment_121575620

I think the amount of people that want a border poll in ROI is irrelevant at the moment, as figures are not really reflected the same in NI. 

In the same poll 55% in the north want a Border Poll.

Majorities in both constituencies want to have the debate and want to see what is proposed.

twin_beacon

Half of all respondents (50 per cent) in Northern Ireland said they would vote against Irish unity, which included 21 per cent of those from a Catholic background.

Just over a quarter (26 per cent) in the North said they would vote for unity, while 19 per cent said they didn’t know how they would vote and 5 per cent said they would not vote.

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2022/12/03/poll-shows-northern-ireland-rejects-unity-by-large-margin/

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121578053#Comment_121578053

It doesn't make sense for a lot of people in the North to join the Republic. They can live in the North, travel to the Republic during the week to earn big wages. They are part of UK with a passport etc.

Imy my opinion I would expect the catholic vote to increase in terms of staying in UK instead of decreasing. So the ignorance of some that think every person with a Catholic background would automatically vote for a Untied Ireland is been proved wrong. That angle seemed to be pushed by some who thought that once more of population was from a Catholic background instead of other religions it would be an open goal.

As I said multiple times on this thread, the only way to see a United Ireland is long term and via projects like the current government has across the border.

Bobson Dugnutt

SF won’t deliver a UI. They are a barrier to it.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121578053#Comment_121578053

Without a plan people will not vote for the unknown.

That seems sensible to me.

That is why those advocating for a UI (genuinely advocating, not pretending) want a Plan first. So the only polling that matters on 'how' people will vote is the poll after a UI is proposed.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121578068#Comment_121578068

the ignorance of some that think every person with a Catholic background would automatically vote for a Untied Ireland is been proved wrong.

Can you name anyone of significance in the UI debate that believes this?

moon2

Personally, I suspect the longer "Brexit" fails to make a meaningful difference to cross border travel of people or goods, the less likely people are to change the status quo. The big boost in support for unity was on the back of the UK angling towards an actual hard border. In reality that is looking increasingly unlikely to occur, despite the unending posturing from some people.

Even if travel is more difficult with a British passport, the availability of an Irish passport provides a much simpler solution than voting to change your legal standing.

Even if certain goods are hard to get from mainland Britain equivalents can be imported from Ireland, and vice versa. It's not a vote winner or loser.

The problems with the assembly are as difficult to solve with a UI as they are today. The biggest difference would be that if there were a vote for a UI it implicitly requires a change in governmental structure on both sides of the border, and that's an opportunity to address the root of the problem by ensuring the new structure doesn't allow subsets of the country to be ungoverned for years.

Similar to what clo-clo said, the best way to grease the slide to unity would be to continue funding cross border initiatives so if (when?) life is meaningfully worse under the current system, there's clear examples Ireland can point to to show it really is better on their side of the fence.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121578113#Comment_121578113

Cross border initiatives would be more likely to increase under a SF programme for government and ahead of a BP.

No brainer really.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121578127#Comment_121578127

No they wouldn't, Sinn Fein have been in government in North how long and how many have they implemented or even tried to?

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121578071#Comment_121578071

Bingo, the only way we can have a United Ireladn is for people from all backgrounds/parties/religions etc to come to an agreement

Sinn Fein had the chance to start this process when they won the majority in the assembly. What did they do? do an opening speech in Irish just to rub the noses of the other parties in it. That's Sinn Fein, all about division and bickering

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121578767#Comment_121578767

The north's 'government' is in London.

In the executive Sinn Fein have been working to advance the integration of services and infrastructure throughout the Border region.

That you don't know this shows a remarkable ignorance of the area you choose to comment on. Go back and research who has been calling for the streamlining and integration of cross border services.

Whenever you stop taking the hump when Irish people speak in their native tongue maybe you might also recognise that there is a concerted campaign to stymie cross border co-operation from those who get upset by the very sight of the Irish language never mind hearing it.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121578891#Comment_121578891

is that the Sinn Fein claim expenses off but won’t attend? 🤦‍♂️

In terms of talking Irish, I would have good money my family speaks more in 5 mins than you do all year. I still won’t use it to antagonise others which is what Sinn Fein do. That’s the big difference, adult should act like adults

Division and bickering is what Sinn Fein are about,

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121579099#Comment_121579099

Those 'others' you talk about have tried to wipe out the language, and have blocked and frustrated agreements on it for years. But of course the Irish must bow and scrape, stay quiet and not offend. They even got upset about it on a manhole cover - 'Adults should act like adults' indeed.

Finty Lemon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121575079#Comment_121575079

Sure what else would they say

Also, according to Census 2023

• "The number of people who indicated that they could speak Irish increased by 6% between 2016 and 2022 to 1,873,997" 
• Monaghan has the 4th highest proportion of people who speak Irish 'very well' at 11.6% (behind, Kerry, Galway and Donegal). Just as well because they don't speak English so well!

So 1.9m people can speak Irish and 76% want a border poll and Monaghan is the new Gaeltacht. I will take them all in the spirit they were meant 😀

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121579344#Comment_121579344

Is this relevant to the discussion?

Not seeing how it is.

Finty Lemon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121579383#Comment_121579383

Very relevant indeed.

1.8m people say they cant speak Irish. Can they really?

76% say they want a BP. Do they really?

Some questions have pre-ordained answers in this country.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121579433#Comment_121579433

Ah right.

You don't believe the numbers.

What do you prefer instead, the views of some random person on the internet? Someone who talked to a lad in the pub?

Finty Lemon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121579458#Comment_121579458

You are missing the point. I do believe the numbers. But the numbers are irrelevant.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121579310#Comment_121579310

When I lived in the north nobody tried to wipe out the language, any language.

I didn’t see and I don’t see today anyone having to “bow and scrape”

Sounds like nonsense, biggest issue in the north is the poor representation they get from elected officials. That’s at the feet of Sinn Fein who bicker with the other parties in the assembly and won’t represent the people of Northern Ireland in London.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121579546#Comment_121579546

Like pulling teeth here.

Tell us why they are Finty.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121579551#Comment_121579551

As I said, it is extraordinary the confidence you have in your take on history given the gaps in it.

These are just some of the steps taken to ensure the native language died in the north.

For more info do some research on the subject matter of Brian Friel in Translations etc. There is no excuse for gaps in your knowledge as the info is all there on google.

The people who elect them know why they abstain from parliament. Again, contrary to what many ill informed/under researched believe, elected SF MP's do all the other work expected of them as representatives, they just on principle refuse to interfere in the running of Scotland, Wales and England in Westminster.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121579660#Comment_121579660

Nearly 100 years ago 🙄 yes of course that is relevant now

Provisional Sinn Fein wasn't even formed.

Google away, I will base my knowledge on living in the North. You can find all sorts of sh*te on google. I think actually living in the North, working in the North etc is a better way of gaining knowledge.

Maybe you should spend so much time in the past and look more today the present and future. Especially when I am sure you will make excuses for Sinn Fein and the PIRA for killing all those people for years and fail to achieve the United Ireland they wanted.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121580057#Comment_121580057

And?

You claimed it didn't happen just because you didn't see it.

You also want Irish people not to speak it because some people (the very ones who cannot abide even the sight of it on a manhole cover) might get offended.

You are part of the cohort who wants it hidden away from view or hearing. Plenty of those type around 100 years ago too in southern Ireland. Colonialism gives people inferiority complexes that last for generations.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121580068#Comment_121580068

You work it out

If you want to sit in the past that's your choice. I updated my post FYI, have a read

Also don't tell me what I do or don't want, you have no idea.

 Colonialism gives people inferiority complexes that last for generations.

😁

Find that on google did you? 😂

You post some real nonsense.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121580084#Comment_121580084

I am not in the past. The war against the Irish language and the refusal to recognise the rights it has continues to this day.

You just took part in it, deriding and criticising Irish people for speaking it and not those feigning offence which is really good old fashioned bigotry.

You are a classic example of an self hating Irish person who bows and scrapes so as not to offend. Lie down croppy boy etc.

That day is over Clo, north and south.

P.S. The theory that colonialism instills inferiority was around long before Google but you will find many articles and books there about it. As said already, just because you haven’t heard about it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121580084#Comment_121580084

He is correct that colonialism gives people inferiority complexes that last for generations. However, he does not see that his obsession with a united Ireland is the clear unequivocal manifestation of that inferiority complex. Yearning for something that is out of reach feeds the inferiority complex.

Those of us who have overcome our inferiority complex are happy with our Ireland, with our 26 counties, with our freedoms, and we don't need any concession from anyone else either up North or in London to make us content with our lot. We don't need to get one over the unionists to live our lives happily the way that Francie and the good republicans with inferiority complexes yearn to do.

Up north, those who have got over their inferiority complex are happy with the Union and vote SDLP and the Alliance, confident enough in themselves that they don't have to retreat into their comfort blanket of SF sectarianism to live their lives.

You obviously have no inferiority complex left either which is why you are probably unaware of how deeply it runs through good republicanism.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121587020#Comment_121587020

Maybe, no idea what they are waffling about inferiority complex. Rep of Ireland is a hugely successful country, we are standing on the shoulders of giant who worked to get the people of today into the position we are in. Maybe that is me been inferior, not sure to what. Certainly not the UK or England

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121587531#Comment_121587531

No, you are not inferior or displaying any inferiority complex. We all should be proud of our country, of what we have achieved since independence.

Those that wallow in the dreams of the 19th century, who labour under a misapprehension of 800 years of oppression, who salivate over census returns that show Catholics growing in numbers, they are the ones with the inferiority complex.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121587020#Comment_121587020

Those of us who have overcome our inferiority complex are happy with our Ireland, 

'Our' Ireland?

That sounds very like the bombast Irish people have to listen to up north.

It's 'Our' wee country.

If you are silencing people who wish to speak your own native language in their own country or supporting those who would silence, because others might be offended, then you have a problem with your own self worth.

Colonisnised peoples the world over would be familiar with this self censorship and involuntary kow towing. It takes confident movements, like Conradh na Gaeilge, to rebuild pride in who we are.

The majority of the Irish people are done apologising.

blanch152

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/hefty-bill-for-sinn-feins-gerry-kelly-as-judge-throws-out-scandalous-attempt-to-sue-journalist-malachi-odoherty/a2066617518.html

The more I read about this case, the more I think it could have an effect on Sinn Fein's ability to form a government.

I haven't seen a judge come down as hard on a litigant, except maybe someone who was caught out in an insurance fraud.

"The judge then went further, saying that Mr Kelly’s decision to sue Mr O’Doherty was “without doubt an abuse of process”.

"The judge agreed with that, saying: “The field of political speech — and I use this term in the widest possible sense so as to include not only what politicians say, but also what others say about politicians, their policies and their actions — is a field which must be carefully handled lest the fabric of democracy be damaged. Defamation actions in this field need to be carefully considered in case they are being used to attack legitimate free speech… Of course every individual has the right to defend their good name but, as elected representatives, politicians have a duty to display a greater degree of restraint when it comes to taking to legal action against journalists.”

The judge went on to say that the facts suggest that “rather than being a genuine attempt to defend a reputation which has been damaged by an untruth, the proceedings are what has been referred to as a SLAPP, namely an attempt to silence two bothersome journalists with the threat of legal costs. The proceedings appear to be a strategic effort to intimidate them, to deprive them of time and resources, and ultimately to silence them… The abuse of process in this case is so blatant that it would be utterly unjust if the court were to allow the proceedings to continue."

This is a hammering for Sinn Fein, Gerry Kelly and their SLAPPs cases in the courts. Other parties are going to want clarity on these kind of issues.