Irish birthrate slumps 22% in a decade

@Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119169357#Comment_119169357

You were having a dig at the family unit, daring not to mention the fact that most families are not "suffering" but are very happy with their kids - even at the most difficult of times.

@Hamachi called you out, and rightly so.

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119169357#Comment_119169357

Yes. I read your post. I’ve quoted your own terminology verbatim. It’s not a dig. If that’s how you perceive children, it’s probably best that you don’t experience fatherhood.

It’s a lot of hard work and takes endless patience. Some people just aren’t cut out for it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119169418#Comment_119169418

Actually, no to both you and Hamachi.

He expressed a viewpoint common among many single males in their 30s and 40s.

As for the dig at the family unit, there's always been a US vs Them mentality between people in relationships with kids, and those who are single. We don't understand the lives each other lead, and typically, there is some ribbing involved. Any single person in their 30s/40s will have plenty of experience of judgments/observations being made about their lifestyles coming from people in relationships.

I struggle with Kids. (I was even a kindergarten teacher for a year way back in the day.) Honestly. Oh, they're cute at times, and some kids have been raised extremely well, but many more haven't. They're allowed to run wild, with the parents standing helplessly on the sidelines, or failing dramatically to rein them in. The noise, the tantrums, the crying, the emotional manipulation, etc all contribute to me not wanting to spend any real time with kids, unless I really have no other option. i.e related to me.

Oh, people always say it's different when they're your own kids, and perhaps that's true.. but when you don't have em... they're just plain annoying in most extended situations.

Also many women have told me that I would be a great father. I don't see it myself.. but.. yeah.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119169592#Comment_119169592

I accept that, and I know exactly what you mean.

Personally, I'd pay a higher fee for aircraft that specifically banned kids / young children. Nothing worse than children on flights.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119169585#Comment_119169585

I don't think you did.

I commented on a few children, not all children. I shouldn't have to explain something this basic.

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119169620#Comment_119169620

Again, I read it and quoted you verbatim. If you have an issue with that, consider the language you use to articulate your thoughts going forward.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119169650#Comment_119169650

And there's the gaslighting. I articulated my thoughts just fine, thank you very much.

Quitelife

Many of those PERMANENTLY ON SOCIAL WELFARE are consistently having large family's 5-8 children no bother .

Its those working with mortgages and having to pay their way in life that are having fewer and fewer children as they cant afford them!

Its changing the demographics of many towns and villages as the law abiding tax payer is been outbred!

MakersMark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119169756#Comment_119169756

Exactly.

If youre on the dole, then child welfare should be lowered for each extra kid the tax payer has to care for.

Additionally dead beat dad's should have their dole cut, as should any dole swindler who won't give the name of the dead beat dad.

Make child care tax deductible so working people can afford to have kids, and swing the population demographic away from the perpetually workshy and toward those with a work ethic.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119169866#Comment_119169866

It should be a one child policy if you're a long-term Dole abuser.

For example: a woman on the Dole for 14-years with nothing wrong with her, except her attitude, should be reliably informed she can have 1 child and the state will contribute child benefit accordingly. However, if they decide to have a second child, they'll get nothing on top of that child benefit sum.

Child benefit for supplementary children will be available only to those who have contributed to the system in some meaningful and obvious way.

This would help reduce the social welfare burden and stop what is effectively a subsidy for industrial child production in this country.

Tonesjones

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119169661#Comment_119169661

Gaslight:

manipulate (someone) by psychological means into doubting their own sanity.

Bit of a dramatic stretch no?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119170076#Comment_119170076

That's what I thought; it came across as quite frankly ridiculous.

Galwayguy35

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119168444#Comment_119168444

Yeah my mother and father did, 2 people who wanted to have kids more than anything and were only sad that the biological clock prevented them having more.

I've lost out on relationships with 2 women I was crazy about and who wanted to settle down with me but I had to be honest with them when they mentioned having kids that it was something I just didn't want.

Would it have been better if I wasted their time stringing them along or agreed to have kids and end up a reluctant father who felt I was kind of forced into it?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119167902#Comment_119167902

If you have kids, you can't count on having them available to look after you when you decline.

If you don't have kids, you can absolutely count on not having them available to look after you when you decline.

Most kidults think they'll never be old. They will.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119168840#Comment_119168840

How noble of you. What's your real reason? Fear?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119172001#Comment_119172001

My reason for what now?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119172006#Comment_119172006

The reason for being so noble and not wanting to expose your children to looking after you in your old age. Most people who say that are only disguising a fear of something, but that fear varies from person to person.

It's like your line about your mother. My mother spared us the trouble of looking after her in her decline by getting cancer and dying in her mid-70s. Her body was fecked with the disease, but her mind was intact until the very end, and we never faced the awful choices of giving up because we couldn't do it and trusting her to the care of the State. We were probably lucky, even if it didn't feel that way.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119172024#Comment_119172024

Ahh right, that, no I didn’t think of it as noble tbh. I think I get what you mean though - I don’t mind admitting I’m afraid that I’ll ever need to be taken care of, especially if it was something I’d no control over and could no longer do something about it myself.

As an aside, I dunno if it’s inappropriate but I’m sorry to hear about your mam.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119172104#Comment_119172104

Thanks for your words about my mam. She had a lot of living she wanted to do, and put simply when she knew her illness was terminal she was terrified. And as I get older something I've seen in a lot of people is that when children are really afraid they need their parents, and when older people are really afraid they need their kids. I'm not saying that's a universal thing, but I've observed it more and more as the years go by. In my mam's case I was a small help at that stage, but my younger sister was the person my mother really leaned on - as daughters often end up in such a role.

An old and now deceased aunt of mine was fond of the saying "old age doesn't come alone". And it doesn't. No matter how wealthy or how healthy you are, at some point the decline through old age and death will inevitably get ugly. In poorer societies and in more primitive times, older people couldn't count on the community or the State to take care of them when their minds and bodies started to collapse, so they relied on their children. And that, at its simplest, is why they had many kids. Some would die, some would move away, but if you had lots of kids some would hang around nearby and take some form of care of you as you went into decline. The next generation were socialised into the same way of thinking and behaving, and the cycle repeated itself.

As societies got richer and more modern, people didn't need to have so many kids, mainly because fewer of them would die young. It's one of the reasons why birth rates have fallen in all advanced economies. It's also one of the reasons why the loss of a child is seen by societies like ours as such a catastrophe compared to how it would have been viewed quite recently, even as recently as two generations ago. If you only have one or two children, the loss of one is much more stark and significant than if you have 9 or 10 - even if you only view it through the crude lens of DNA propagation.

Not very noble, indeed. But a lot of the underlying reasons behind our choices in life are less noble than the stories we might tell ourselves and each other.

John Doe1

Logical solution: Give more tax breaks and incentives to Families to have children

Government solution: Bring more people from the third world with a value system anathema to Ireland into the country and plunge us further into a housing crisis.

rossie1977

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119168523#Comment_119168523

Ireland has been exposed to globalisation for few millennia now. Between the Celts and the Vikings and the Normans and the Spanish and the Saxons and the Tudors and the Scots and the Dutch this country been looted and conquered and changed dramatically over the centuries to give us what we see today

Ham Grenade

Good looking birds will always seek an alpha male with good physical attributes and good income to procreate with. The alpha lads can play the field and have a lot of fun with all the attention - and why not !

The best the whingey balding ‘nice guy’ with the beer gut can hope for is an overweight dowdy lass with hopefully a tight vjj. However Mr Baldy Nice Guy has had his expectations raised with social media/porn/online fantasy and is looking for more…..

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119171998#Comment_119171998

If you have kids, you can count on them deciding on your nursing home.

If you don't have kids, you must choose it yourself. I know which side I'd be coming down on.

Have seen some articles showing people without kids live longer, healthier lives and are less likely to end up in a home, but this isn't being studied rigorously, nor will it given the forced-birth orientation in society.

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119172445#Comment_119172445

Or the parent is cared for at home for as long as is humanly possible. When that is no longer possible, the parent is visited almost daily by at least one their children in the nursing home.

I have a huge amount of experience of this precise scenario over the last 7 years as a result of one of my parents being afflicted with cognitive decline. My siblings and I have also come to know many of the other families in the same situation. I can assure you that the scenario I’ve outlined in the first paragraph is very common.

I feel desperately sorry for the older people with no family. We always try to have a short conversation with them and try to bring a smile to their faces. It must be excruciatingly lonely to live out your final days with no family. Whilst not all children will step up, chances are that if they live locally, or indeed live in Ireland, they will be around fairly frequently.

I know which outcome I’d prefer.

Jequ0n

I wonder how many morons who are convinced that their offspring will look after them in old age will have a rude awakening one day.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119172472#Comment_119172472

I wouldn't belittle them as 'morons.' Gullible, yes, this is the lie sold to them by society. A fair bit selfish too - since they calculated that they could lay this obligation on their children before they had them. Why else do people bring this up? Because it's a way to sell childbearing.

And, oh, 100% or nearly so will have that rude awakening.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119172455#Comment_119172455

As always, anecdotes are not data. See what Wibbs posted. Children don't visit. And many are anxious for the old ones to get out of the house and off to the home.

Plan for your own retirement and old age now. Don't count on anyone else.

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119169756#Comment_119169756

This is the strangest part.

If you are welfare or rich you can afford kids in Ireland. If in the middle you can't.

There is something wrong somewhere.

Hamachi

I wonder how some people are so innately damaged, that they can’t conceive that many people come from close, loving families, with children who want to do right by their parents.

Children who make sacrifices to ensure that their parents are at least as comfortable and happy as possible when they are in terminal decline. Children who try to repay the immense debt of gratitude to parents who have set them up for a good life.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119172489#Comment_119172489

True. If you can't feed 'em, don't breed 'em.

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119172488#Comment_119172488

What Wibbs posted is anecdotal too. I’m telling you that almost all the residents that I knew with family, had regular visits from their children. My parent died last year. We went to an anniversary mass last month in the nursing home. Most of those same families are still there supporting their relatives.

Of course everybody knows to plan for their own retirement. You would have to be an idiot not to. However, the pervasive cynicism propagated by people on this forum, doesn’t hold true in my experience.

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119172494#Comment_119172494

How do those on welfare manage it?

They have the most children and are keeping them going somehow.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119172507#Comment_119172507

Which is why you should plan for your 'elderly' years. My anecdotal experience matches Wibbs. TBF, it was in the US which makes a lot of money via elderstorage.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119172508#Comment_119172508

Contraception ftw. Strangely enough, when Reagan took over and later Clinton, and federal welfare support dropped, sizes of families receiving welfare shrank. Of course, abortion was widely available the in the US, too.

Having offspring has always been a big economic decision. When the value of the offspring is less than the cost, the family size shrinks.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119172493#Comment_119172493

I wonder how so many people can go through life believing in the unbreakable family bond. And how people genuinely think it’s fair to expect their children to look after them in old age. But there you go, we are all different.

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119172509#Comment_119172509

Nobody is saying that you shouldn’t plan for your later years. I know nothing about elder care in the US.

My experience is in Ireland. I also have colleagues in a similar situation. I don’t know of anybody who has abandoned an elderly parent.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119172522#Comment_119172522

Do you know parents with large families where only 1 or two children visit? I certainly do in Ireland. Plenty in fact, I'd say the majority (with 3 or more children that I'm aware of.) At best they have the eldest daughter as caregiver, something she was raised to do. Nice, eh?

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119172513#Comment_119172513

And I wonder how some people can’t understand that some children are happy to take on that responsibility. Again, many of us come from happy and loving homes. We want to be there for our parents. Our family is the most important thing in our lives.

You don’t understand that- fine. Do I expect my own children to look after me? No; I don’t. However, by providing them a happy and loving childhood, I do hope that we will have a lifelong relationship.

There’s nothing moronic about any of this. It’s a dynamic that’s replicated across countless families.

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119172532#Comment_119172532

I know in my own family all 5 children visited multiple times per week, ensuring the parent was visited daily.

I suspect that I’m a lot younger than you and don’t know many people from large families. The people I know with a couple of siblings make the effort to visit as much as possible.

Anecdotal I know, but that’s been my experience.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119172544#Comment_119172544

“And I wonder how some people can’t understand that some children are happy to take on that responsibility.”

Nobody is “happy” to take on this responsibility. They do it out of duty and a guilty conscience..

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119172489#Comment_119172489

"Something wrong somewhere?"

Have you not seen the price of rent and housing? Years of conservative policy have led to this.

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119172561#Comment_119172561

Rubbish. People do it because they love their parents and want to be around them in their final years.

Personally, I can assure you that my family was very happy to be around our parent in their final years. We are all fully aware of how much they did for us and wanted to repay that in some small way.

I’m going to leave it there as I believe that you and I have very different outlooks on family and life experiences.

robbiezero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119172561#Comment_119172561

Or maybe they love their parents. Not a difficult concept to grasp.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119172564#Comment_119172564

A better life to those on welfare than those paying the bulk of income tax is not a symptom of "conservative policy"

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119172564#Comment_119172564

To refer to Fine Gael as "Conservative" is laughable.

@Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119172455#Comment_119172455

I have a huge amount of experience of this precise scenario over the last 7 years as a result of one of my parents being afflicted with cognitive decline. My siblings and I have also come to know many of the other families in the same situation. I can assure you that the scenario I’ve outlined in the first paragraph is very common.

Yes, it is very common. It's also very common that the parents are put into a nursing home and forgotten. Or the parents are put in and the "children" struggle with the extra costs involved. Or simply that the parents don't end up in a nursing home, and are essentially left to fend for themselves.

There are plenty of good people out there but the flip side is equally true. There is no guarantee that through the process of raising children, that they will turn out well, will respect you, and will feel any obligation to either support you later or maintain good relations later.

I know adults in their 40s who hate what their parents did to them. (not me, I adore my parents)

I feel desperately sorry for the older people with no family. We always try to have a short conversation with them and try to bring a smile to their faces. It must be excruciatingly lonely to live out your final days with no family. Whilst not all children will step up, chances are that if they live locally, or indeed live in Ireland, they will be around fairly frequently.

What you described is possible, but then, for those who were single, and didn't have children themselves, there's no expectation for such a family. Oh, I can see moments of loneliness involved, but there are other forms of family, through the descendants of brothers/sisters. There's friends and their children. There's simply friends (both new and old).. and lastly, there's people who are comfortable with being alone. Those that don't need that kind of contact you keep referring to.

I know which outcome I’d prefer.

Me too and it doesn't involve having my own children. @Hamachi , you and I know each other pretty well from posting here.. do you really think that my eyes are covered about what it would be like? And yet, I don't see having children as being the only possible answer, which is what your posts seek to suggest.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119172821#Comment_119172821

Yes it is by virtue of choking housing supply to suit investors and NIMBY's.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119172472#Comment_119172472

Calling people "morons" is a bit much. Everybody here is trying to predict a future they can't possibly foresee. Some people are hoping that when they reach their old age everything will work out for them re: kids looking after them in their own home. Others are hoping that when the time comes they can just pick an old folks home and everything will be hunky dory there too.

Either way is a fantasy because the simple fact is is that we have no idea what the circumstances will be when, or if, we reach an age where we'd need full time care. I certainly had no idea when my old pair reached that particular age bracket. I always figured they'd drop dead of something before the old folks home scenario happened. They certainly didn't live very healthy lifestyles to justify the ages they reached, especially the old man who'd be 96 this year if he'd hadn't kicked the bucket in 2016. Both of them smoked like troopers, even my mum who'd had a triple bypass too because of her habit and didn't stop. She was hooked up to R2D2 to help her breathe for the last 10 years of her life. That they got to the age they did was a surprise to say the least.

In any case, me and my sister just weren't able to give everything up and look after the pair of them in their own home. Giving up work for 5 years in the case of my mum or 10 years in the case of dad just wasn't an option. And it won't be an option for the vast majority of people either. It's a nice idea, but it just isn't practical in most cases. So they had to go into a home. Where, in fairness, they received excellent care and wanted for nothing. But then again, my folks were always make do'ers. Probably something they learned during the war and it stuck. They'd little in the way of airs and graces and weren't particularly demanding in most respects. So once they had settled with the idea of the old folks home, they just got on with the remainder of the lives.

And that is the reality of old age for more people than not. If there's a situation whereby children can give up ex amount of their own years to look after a parent(s) then that's grand. But it simply won't be happening for the bulk of people. And that goes double if there are mental issues to consider too, like dementia or Alzheimers.

joseywhales

Re:being taken care of at the end of life. It's all about modelling. My parents took care of their parents and their children simultaneously, I was alive to see that, we even moved a granny into the house, therefore I take care of my parents, its an internal family social contract that has not been broken for generations. A family group is strengthened by the strong(working age) supporting the weak(young and old). Now you can break that tradition but then you are just an individual with very little purpose apart from self gratification and death.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119170911#Comment_119170911

You are to be commended, one of my sisters is married ( 41 ) ,has a great legal career in Dublin but never wanted children, spent years single before finding someone who felt the same, happily married now , great auntie to my two terrors

Nothing whatsoever wrong with choosing not to be a parent