2022-23 UEFA Champions League

SlickRic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120703890#Comment_120703890

Grand job.

So we don't care that competitiveness is being destroyed long term by a regime that enables child soldiers, migrants abuse, various human rights violations and the like while also cheating their way to getting the platform they enjoy now to be the best team in the world year on year.

it's has nothing to do with me being a Liverpool fan, and I'm tired of that argument. I despise Utd. If their means were anyway close to as nefarious over the 90s and 00s, I'd be shouting it from the fúcking rooftops. and their fans would be doing the same of Liverpool's relative success over the Klopp years. but guess what, this is wholly different, and no amount of whataboutery will change it.

I don't expect City fans to care. they kinda shouldn't. it's not their fault. their owners ploughed money into their club, and they've been witnessing their neighbours make the city red for decades. they want their time in the sun, and I totally get how their fans will justify all this by any means necessary. I don't agree with it, but I get it.

But anyone else defending what they're seeing - it's genuinely mind-boggling.

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120704191#Comment_120704191

Really? Which part do you an issue with?

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120704217#Comment_120704217

Guardiola wouldn't have been in the position to create this type of dominance without the ground work of financial doping being done for him.

You can't ignore that unless you're biased.

Also, the idea that all United fans are delighted at the prospect of being owned by Qatar is a risible notion, there's a huge amount of disharmony amongst United fans about that.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120704295#Comment_120704295

Your entire argument really and your waffle about what clubs my kids will support blah blah blah.

kowloonkev

City supporters forever arguing against a point that nobody made.

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120704320#Comment_120704320

I wasn't talking about your kids specifically. When I go down to my local soccer club increasingly I see kids with Man City and Newcastle shirts is what I'm talking about.

You don't like what I'm saying so you dismiss it as waffle. That's useful.

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120704246#Comment_120704246

I'm not defending it. Morally it's corrupt. See what happened with the golf. They just used LIV as a vehicle to get a seat at the top table. They've been at the top table in soccer for a while now.

Suvarnabhumi

Maybe the Mods could merge all these posts into a "city financial doping" thread? The same discussion is across a few different threads.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120704592#Comment_120704592

What you're posting is commentary. It's your opinion. People such as myself on the opposite side of the argument are posting facts which you are dismissing because they don't suit your opinion.

Essentially we have a situation where you are telling everyone here hat we should value your opinion more than facts. As such what you're posting is waffle. That isn't a dismissal it's an observation of fact.

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120704311#Comment_120704311

If it happens they'll accept it though. Most of them I'd imagine. It would still be a full house at Old Trafford. The Tory Brexiteer backer is hardly a more palatable option morally.

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120704648#Comment_120704648

To borrow your phrase from above; You're veering into stream of consciousness stuff now.

TheCitizen

Been reported that Pep will leave City at the end of his contract in 2 years.

Don't think it's ever a good idea to signal the date of your departure.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120704666#Comment_120704666

Yeah, nasty facts go away.

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120704741#Comment_120704741

No they don’t go away. Not sure if makes any difference though? Hush money.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120704653#Comment_120704653

Morally they are light years apart and to try and claim otherwise is complete and utter horseshit of the highest order. Neither are exactly palatable but they are still vastly different

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120703081#Comment_120703081

Plenty of countries have done that just depends how far you want to look historically and currently. Plus the countries you view as ‘depraved’ in this discussion many are important geopolitical allies of countries from ‘The West’. I already said in the running for the year the Saudis want to bid for the WC is the USA. And how many would set up a thread critiquing the US. Similar to how many did with Qatar and will do with the Saudis?

Type in ‘Guantanamo’ ’ or ‘CIA Coup’ and you can learn some of what the paragon of Virtue of the Western World is like. Also type in ‘Apple Child Labour’ ‘Nike Child Labour’ etc.

Not many will because there is a certain boards narrative - which is basically cultural xenophobic attitudes disguised as ‘caring’. I see through bluffers like yourself a mile away.

How many talk of the wrongdoing of Juve and Marseille etc these days? Very few. Because on boards Italy and France would be culturally closer to Ireland than the Middle East - China etc. I see through the narrative spun against other cultures that are not Western and it is certain ‘types’ with a narrow worldview who do so. Types who believe that Western cultures are number 1. The sheer gall and hubris is almost colonial in it’s mindset.

Suvarnabhumi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120704677#Comment_120704677

Win another couple of Leagues and numerous Cup (Domestic & European) and then get the hell out before the sh!t hits the fan. He won't want to be around when the 115 case is resolved.

Run Forest Run

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120704648#Comment_120704648

You like facts?

Here's an uncomfortable fact for you so...

The culture within the league is what has created the Man City situation. So the entire league including all the fans need to take some responsibility for the current situation. But you guys don't want to do that, you'd rather just bury your head in the sand and ignore the elephant in the room!

The way ownership and finances were going, the league was always destined to create a Frankenstein's monster... it should have probably happened earlier with Chelsea, but they lacked the stability because of how often they sack managers.

Plenty of fans whinged about Chelsea over the years. But that was 20 years ago, what fundamental changes have occurred in the intervening years to create a more equitable competition?

The answer, nothing... FFP was basically forced on the league. But isn't really the answer, assuming it's even enforced properly. The league itself has done essentially nothing to curb the culture of dodgy/shady owners coming into it's competition - because they're desperate to make the EPL the most powerful league in the world. And this is fundamentally driven by the fans too, because they want to win at all costs... so we get everyone turning a blind eye so long as their club has money to compete. Until the Frankenstein's monster comes along, and starts to throw their weight around... now everyone else isn't having fun anymore!

I'm sorry the City group empire has ruined all your fun. But you get what deserve, when you allow the competition to throw all of it's values and integrity out the window in return for instant success and mega wealth. Perhaps if fans had taken a stand in a significant way 20+ years ago, then you wouldn't be in this situation. But greed has corrupted almost everyone involved in the game.

suffering golfer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120704677#Comment_120704677

Don't think that is what the report is about. He has a contract for another two years, there were some questions about whether he might leave now given that he won the treble, and he is basically saying no, I will stay for my contract. His contract may get extended, but that is up to Pep I guess.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120705365#Comment_120705365

Spot on @Run Forest Run. Capitalism and marketing- SKY created the PL. Many Irish people lapped it up while sneering at domestic Irish Soccer. That was the real start of the push of the money men to a different level to even Italy in the 80’s. Now suddenly when things are called ‘unfair’ or ‘doping’ some think the genie can be put back in the bottle. I laugh to myself at some of the faux outraged comments against Man City on this thread.

I think of 1995 Jack Walker - Kenny Dalglish - Blackburn. That is spun as a fairytale win these days. No FFP to navigate then!

FFP by its very nature is an artificial financial construct. Like all financial constructs those in finance are paid to push it. Find loopholes- find new avenues. Be innovative. Much like how innovative soccer managers can find weaknesses to exploit against the status quo. Same thing -only one is off the pitch while the other is on it. That is the financial gurus game in the now ultra capitalist game/business of soccer. All who watch it drive it on. The consumers/supporters/fans.

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120705020#Comment_120705020

We're talking about brexiteer tories here. Nah I disagree.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120705365#Comment_120705365

Oh look more commentary.

We all know that the structure of football stinks. Hardly a ground breaking revelation.

The most relevant fact in this discussion is that away from all the morally bankrupt behaviour of football clubs and governing bodies, Manchester City remain the only club to have had the gall to carry out the type of financial doping they're being (accurately) accused of.

"it's ok to be amoral because other people do amoral things too" isn't the get out of jail free card some people seem to think it is.

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120705728#Comment_120705728

Where did he say it’s ok to be amoral because others are amoral?

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120705842#Comment_120705842

That as clearly the subtext.

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120705861#Comment_120705861

No it isn’t. You like making stuff up and dressing it up as “facts” don’t you.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120706234#Comment_120706234

Really? The only other possible subtext is that other clubs have done bad things and there's a witch hunt against City who have never done anything wrong.

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120706525#Comment_120706525

Again who has said that Man City have never done anything wrong. Seriously if you are going to insist on arguing with people can you argue with them on what they actually said as opposed to your idea of what may be the “subtext”.

SlickRic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120705260#Comment_120705260

If all else fails, cry racist. Classy.

McFly85

The world is terrible, so Man City’s overt terribleness is to be celebrated is such a bizarre take tbh.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120706679#Comment_120706679

I said 'culturally xenophobic' a subtle difference which you chose to ignore.

In your rush to make glib posts such as 'classy' shows poster who is losing an argument and is unable to debate. I pointed out the similarities that Western Countries/governments and their companies have done/and are doing to similar to those countries you seem to have a set on. You really need to educate yourself on world geopolitics history current affairs. Then maybe you can eventually view the world for what it is. An intertwining of internationals relations between vastly different cultures where it is expedient to do so. And where it is mutually beneficial for countries to have those alliances. For all your chatter you seem very naive to the ways of the world.

Perhaps then you can look at the soccer itself and see how it mirrors all cultures in the capitalist world that the consumers cried out for - as another poster correctly pointed out. It was and is the the soccer consumers who created this and called for this climate. You only have to look at evolving nature of what the European Cup once was. It is about creating more revenue streams = more moolah. There is now a third third European competition which a PL league team shed tears of joy over. It was not long ago when PL teams used to sneer at that level the Intertoto cup.

Weepsie

There's absolutely nothing culturally xenophobic for thinking a state that denies the most basic of human rights to swathes of people is stuck in a prehistoric age in so many respects.

And we can think this while also acknowledging our own states shortcomings for the longest time before anyone goes, but but ireland,

Carcharodon

Who would of thought Man City winning the Treble would trigger so many people…lol

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120707885#Comment_120707885

Everyone. Everyone thought that. For really obvious reasons.

SlickRic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120707365#Comment_120707365

It's a subtle difference, but your accusation of xenophobia essentially remains. Don't patronise me. I've no idea who you think you are.

You've simply been careful in how you phrase it, but your point is clear - that I'm ignorant to the realities of multiculturalism, and choose to pick on the non-Western guys. Again, don't patronise me.

If you think Western democracy and capitalism is the same as what they do, then have at it. No system is pure, and nobody said it was. But there are levels that you choose to ignore - a heinous regime that literally enforces barbarism in the the country that they run, while owning and ploughing money into a football club to sportswash it all away. 'Everyone is a bit bad, so let's not call out the really bad' is not the argument you might think it is.

We're obviously not going to agree, so this is it for me.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120707589#Comment_120707589

Again this language sums up my point 'prehistoric'. The Middle East is not prehistoric it is just culturally different. The Middle East was the bastion of culture and learning while Europe was in the dark ages. And it is not true, the middle east is not 'prehistoric' but makes many far more comfortable to label a whole region as 'other'. Easier to rip into while hypocritically ignoring many Western countries issues.

The Middle East was largely created by Western colonialism - and countries such as Qatar and the Saudi's only exist because at various times the great western superpowers USA/America back them/still back them. The Iran situation can largely be traced back to the USA using the CIA to overthrow a democratically elected government in the 50's and replacing him with the Shah. Israel are heavily American backed and would not exist without American backing.

I can see exactly the mindset on many on this thread. If someone can frame a whole culture as 'backwards' without looking at nuance and shining the same light on others/their own cultures to the same extent at all, it is much easier to slag them off

Because if you put the label on a culture 'prehistoric' it is much easier to mentally label a culture as 'savages' and not only that but savages with 'new money' 'rich savages'.

And not only that the 'rich savages' and now playing the soccer capitalist game (created by old money and encouraged by greed) - 'new money' Man City now does it better than 'old money'. Soccer has been lifted to new levels by astute use of this money by Man City. Proper management. 'New money' can easily go the other way if managed incorrectly as seen in the PL with Chelsea, and Everton.

And also how PSG despite their 'new money' still struggle to form a cohesive team when it comes to the crunch. PSG have not done it at European level despite this 'new money' and are now looking to change their approach.

The FFP is a financial construct and soccer teams are big business concerns at the highest level - staff lawyers/accountants are well paid to navigate through this artificial construct. And I am sure many find it upsetting when they see it is 'new money' doing it. It is far easier to label a region as 'prehistoric' in one clumsy label. Which gives the whole thing an added layer.

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120708465#Comment_120708465

I dont think you need to defend the Middle East as the geography of the owner of Man City has nothing to do with the rules they are accused of breaking. A few clubs have been punished for breaking FFP, PSG amongst them so obviously the lawyers accountants are doing their jobs that well. IF football wants to look to another sport on how to deal with these sorts of breaches they could look at Saracens in Rugby who did something quite similar and were relegated but did not have their titles stripped from them.

Dave0301

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120708465#Comment_120708465

This is absolute top tier whataboutery.

gormdubhgorm

I suppose this is relevant here detailed tactical analysis of how Guardiola shaped Man City tactically over the season - from 'football made simple'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8fhQQ--4nI

Tactical analysis from the CL final itself -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyVWIBshnis