E scooters.

NUTLEY BOY

Is it possible to obtain motor or any other third party liability cover for an e scooter ?

Del2005

No, they aren't road legal so insurance is impossible to get.

UrbanFox

Interesting.

(1) Are e scooters actually mechanically propelled vehicles, or not, as per RTA 1961 ?

S 3 (Interpretation) says “mechanically propelled vehicle” means, subject to subsection (2) of this section, a vehicle intended or adapted for propulsion by mechanical means, including—

(a) a bicycle or tricycle with an attachment for propelling it by mechanical power, whether or not the attachment is being used,

(b) a vehicle the means of propulsion of which is electrical or partly electrical and partly mechanical,

LINK https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1961/act/24/section/3/enacted/en/html

(2) If these scooters are mechanically propelled vehicles do they not then fall within the requirement of S 56 / RTA 1961 to be insured when used in a public place ?

(3) I see many of these scooters being used properly but some are not. If an e scooter with no insurance cover negligently knocks down and injures a pedestrian does that become an MIBI claim ?

coylemj

(3) I see many of these scooters being used properly but some are not. If an e scooter with no insurance cover negligently knocks down and injures a pedestrian does that become an MIBI claim ?

I don't believe that has been tested yet. Technically, if an e-scooter is an MPV (and I believe it is) then the MIBI should pay up if you're injured by one.

Which presents the Govt with a major dilemma. They want to regulate them because they're now a fact of life but they either have to ruthlessly crack down on pavement riders or just continue to turn a blind eye and let them do what they like. All it will take is for one injured pedestrian to win a case against the MIBI, then just watch the claims pile up and motorists revolt when their premiums start to go up as a result of an increase to the levy paid by the insurers to the MIBI.

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119205981#Comment_119205981

1) If something can be moved without physical effort it's an MPV. People tried to claim that because you had to kick off on e scooters they are legal, they aren't as they can be propelled by a motor. Even the RSA says they are illegal.

https://www.rsa.ie/road-safety/road-users/special-purpose-vehicles/powered-personal-transportation

2) As above. Insurance, motor tax, licence and an ECE 22.05 Helmet (which is a motorcycle helmet)

3) According to the MIBI site they aren't liable as there's no number plate.

Please note MIBI has no liability for vehicle/property damage claims where the alleged offending vehicle is not identified by means of a valid registration plate and as such we regret we are not in a position to assist you.

The only exception is where the claimant suffers substantial personal injuries resulting in an inpatient hospital stay for five days or more arising from the same incident.

https://www.mibi.ie/making-a-claim/are-you-entitled-to-claim-from-the-mibi.1612.html

coylemj

So if you can persuade the hospital to keep you in for 5 days, the MIBI will pay up!

Henry Ford III

PPT legislation won't be published until next year now it seems.

Latest from "Salads" Ryan is that the proposed no U16 rule will be scrapped as it's unenforcable. No helmets, tax, license, nor insurance likely too.

MIBI won't be liable for 3rd party damage/personal injuries I'm guessing. Why would they be?

Not a great time to be a pedestrian, particularly in Dublin.

NUTLEY BOY

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119238312#Comment_119238312

The only basis on which I could imagine MIBI being liable is that these conveyances are actually mechanically propelled vehicles being used in a public place. IMHO e-scooters are mechanically propelled vehicles.

I do not quite follow the MIBI position as explained by Del2005 at #5 above. Registration number or not if an e-scooter is a mechanically propelled vehicle is that not sufficient to put them on the hook.

I am unaware if there have been any prosecutions for failure to have insurance. Have gardai been directed not to pursue this issue in court on the basis of pending legislation that might render the insurance issue nugatory ?

I would love to see a HC case on the insurance / public place issue.

Henry Ford III

From a legislative perspective I agree as things stand they are mpv's. The Gardai would agree I think.

The new legislation will define them as PPT's though and that's a different and new category.

Insurance won't be required so MIBI won't be even potentially liable I reckon.

Until then they are in limbo legally. The Gardai are turning a blind eye. Insurance isn't available even if you wanted to buy it.

coylemj

The future issue as I see it is that as the national fleet of motorcycles and mopeds start the move to electric, where will the boundary between PPT and MPV be defined?

Will an electric moped with the equivalent power of a 250 c.c. ICE be able to drive on public roads with no licence, insurance or registration plate? 'Sure it's just an electric scooter guard'.

If it's down to kilowattts (horsepower in old money) or maximum capable speed, how will they expect the Gardai to be able to tell who is above and who is below the limit?

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119243539#Comment_119243539

Motorcycles where always restricted on power and that'll be the same regardless of the power source.

Moped's are also covered, once it goes over 25kph it's considered a moped regardless of power source.

Category AM is a two-wheeled mechanically propelled vehicle, not capable of being manually propelled. The machine must have a cylinder capacity not exceeding 50 cc, in the case of an internal combustion engine, or a maximum continuous rated power of no more than 4 kilowatts in the case of an electric motor. The vehicle must have a design speed of at least 25 km/h but not more than 45 km/h.

What will be interesting is if the Gardaí will continue to ignore the illegal PPTs once the legislation is passed as a lot of the ones on the road today will still be illegal.

https://www.rsa.ie/services/learner-drivers/get-qualified/moped-and-light-quadricycle---am

coylemj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119250998#Comment_119250998

But motorcycles and mopeds have registration plates. Which allows a Garda at a checkpoint to check the specs. Which they cannot do for an electric vehicle which has no plates.

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119256136#Comment_119256136

It's not the Gardaí's job to check the specs if they think it's illegal they confiscate it, riding without tax and/or insurance are both offences where they can impound vehicles, and it's the operators job to prove they are legal.

webwayz

I see Paris voted to ban e-scooter rental https://www.cnbc.com/2023/04/03/paris-bans-rented-e-scooters-after-an-overwhelming-90percent-vote-for-their-removal.html

Since it is non-binding, I assume it will just mean rental companies will have to be regulated more rules to make them less of a danger and annoyance to other citizens

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120442469#Comment_120442469

Non binding means that like Brexit the results of the poll can be ignored if the politicians want to, like Brexit the Parisian mayor said he's going to implement the results of the poll.

webwayz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120446732#Comment_120446732

I think the fact it is non-binding and maybe a lowish turnout figure gives scope for the providers, advocates and authorities to come to some accommodation where by some more regulation will allow for rental providers to continue to operate

NUTLEY BOY

If our legislators perform a statutory conjuring trick whereby the e-scooters become PPTs exempt from licence / NCT / road tax are there any EU directives that might trump that and undo the provisions of the Irish legislation ?

Declaration of bias - I still think that e-scooters, soon to be PPTs, are MPVs as per RTA 1961 !

webwayz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120488219#Comment_120488219

I agree, they are MPV (which makes them far different than traditional push bikes, and i know switch bike or add ons complicate it).

But some sort of regulation, needs to be in place, a basic knowledge of rules of the road, maybe "driver" theory test, a small road tax and or personal insurance to use the road? although they are more dangerous to pedestrians when on the pavements..

Henry Ford III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120490069#Comment_120490069

That's not the government's plan though.