Public Pay Talks - see mod warning post 4293

I.R.Y.E.D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121031126#Comment_121031126

Middle management in brothers company starts at 125K with 35 days holidays every year. No one knows what the senior management are on but they get 45 days holiday, this is an Irish company not a U. S. multinational.

90k at the top of the scale for a senior management position is a joke. Given it and the poor pay for grades lower than AP I can see why attracting staff is an issue.

Friend of mine is a HEO in a technical position, and puts in at a minimum 50 hours a week, and if I remember correctly with the first hour of OT done without pay each day. So thats at a minimum 13 hours a week more than he did working for multinationals for 15 years, I can only attest to 10 of those as we both worked in the same team and as I was his lift and always left on the dot every day, so did he. But he feels that having paid off his mortgage he can afford to give something back and his day actually means something unlike working for a private sector multinational. The latter I can certainly agree with.

He'also quite likes the fact he can get to laugh at people who know nothing about the CS claiming to know how little they work etc. He doesn't bother trying to correct them as he's aware of the truth in the quote from Mark Twain about arguing with an idiot.

Things he mentioned that the CS have in common with the private sector is the amount of bitching about managemet by some people because they can't make the grade rather than the stupid decisions some managers make, and the people complaining about this that and the other are the dead weight everyone else has to carry.

HGVRHKYY

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121032062#Comment_121032062

If they can't pay much more then I'd be happy with a 4 day work week if it was implemented well, like we're seeing some private companies doing. I think that could be a very big draw for people towards the CS/PS at all levels; you'd have good job security, working hours and hybrid working combined with excellent work-life balance, allowing far more personal freedoms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121031126#Comment_121031126

Wow, 90k.

IT general managers getting 90k. Imagine trying to attract IT talent for that at senior levels.

Hell, there's been cyber security grade 7 roles advertised recently. 5+ years experience.

Cyber security at 55-71k??? FFS

No wonder they struggle to fill roles and pay a bloody fortune for contractors

Edit: On IT staff, there is a reason that your deskside support is so poor. They are, in the main, now contract staff of fresh graduates who are just first rung jobbing. They are overworked and underpaid so move on the moment they get experience enough to get something else.

Now that will be true in every service desk, even inhouse, but inhouse staff tend to stay a bit longer and look for internal moves. That means that there tends to be a retention of knowledge around issues directly related to your organisation.

Daith

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121032613#Comment_121032613

They went looking for a directory of Ireland's National Cyber security at PO level. Obviously a decent salary but far below what was needed. Which is exactly what happened when they had to advertise it again at a higher salary.

IT and other technical roles aren't considered core and get mangled into existing grades, then they wonder about attracting people.

Ezeoul

It takes 9 years in the AP grade before you hit €90K.

Assistant Principal (PPC)

(1)€74,701 (2)€77,452 (3)€80,241 (4)€83,040 (5)€85,834 (6)€87,445 (LSI1)€90,265¹ (LSI2)€93,095²

€90k is a long service increment after 3 years at point 6.

€93k is a second long service increment after a further 3 years on €90K.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121032253#Comment_121032253

Who will they give 4 day weeks to? The idea of a 4 day work week goes hand in hand with a 3 day weekend so you can't have rolling days off

Nurses? No chance with current staffing (understaffing). Theatres and clinics will have to run their current workload. So that means admin, HCA, cleaners (basically every hospital staff member) will need to be at full capacity.

Garda? Same and they are 24/7 anyway so would, basically, need a workaround in their rota

Teachers? Cause a crisis in childcare, beyond the current crisis. Along with the inevitable comments around their massive time off

The 4 day week can not happen until there is enough pay to fill vacant positions and in some cases, like teachers, really can not happen without a total society change to 4 day.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121032926#Comment_121032926

Very true.

For an external applicant to be a GM in the public service they start at the very bottom of the pay scale.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121032752#Comment_121032752

Your last point is so on the button.

In public service IT staff are in the Clerical Officer pay scale. Seems to be from back in the early IT days when IT was done by people transitioning over from data entry and clerical roles.

It's a new field, still, and it's frustrating to see how it's ignored in the public sector.

Geuze

Here is growth in average earnings by sector, since 2018:

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-elcq/earningsandlabourcostsq42022finalq12023preliminaryestimates/

Geuze

More data:

Daith

There really is no reason why the Engineer and Account grade 2 shouldn't get Flexitime other than the pay is a bit above HEO. Some might be managers but its not designed for that.

You potentially have an inbuilt grade already used in the Civil Service to target at people.

Guffy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121033106#Comment_121033106

Garda members already have a 4 day week, granted 12 hour days. Its currently in process to move back to the 5 day roster, not sure how that will go. No reason why the Garda Staff couldn't go to 4 day weeks, however I'd worry on 1 or 2, literally 1 maybe 2, departments getting their work load done in 4 days without adding additional staff.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121033106#Comment_121033106

A four day week is already available under worksharing and has been for over 20 years, so it is possible. I work a four day week, Monday to Thursday.

Anyone can apply for it. The difference is its pro-rata pay.

doc22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121032752#Comment_121032752

Ah yes the director which they had to massively increase pay to get the right person and then the "right person" was the sitting deupty director.🙄. DPER won't be falling for that again....

Daith

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121033522#Comment_121033522

Surely it was an open competition and attracted talent from all over the world? You're not suggesting a Civil Service body would run sham interviews?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121034033#Comment_121034033

You’re not suggesting that even the substantially increased pay rates didn’t attract the cream of the private sector?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121033522#Comment_121033522

Unless the post is for Robert Watt, in which case DPER will be all

Daith

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121034056#Comment_121034056

The cream of the private sector in national cyber security at that level? Probably not

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121030439#Comment_121030439

What exactly is your problem with people who cycle to work or bring their lunch to work, or both? And what exactly has this got to do with public pay talks? Clearly, I've been taking up large amounts of space rent-free in your head for years now, so you might want to think about letting go, perhaps?

As generally happens, you seem to have missed the point slightly that it's not all about me.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121023710#Comment_121023710

So in other words, a pay cut in real terms yet again.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121024478#Comment_121024478

It's not at all unrealistic. What is your basis for claming it is?

Taxes rise in line with inflation. The government is running a massive surplus but you are calling for our standard of living to be eroded yet again.

It's totally aggravating how bet down and plain thick a lot of people are.

Indestructable

There are quite a few in the PS/CS on the old contracts with the better pension, near retirement, house bought (possibly mortgage paid) who are happy to not rock the boat and tip along as things stand. They are more comfortable and can absorb the cost of living increases.

They are screwing over their younger colleagues and making the PS/CS an unattractive place to work. Inadvertently, they are making life harder for themselves when roles aren't filled.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121035648#Comment_121035648

Did I say it wasn't?

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121027439#Comment_121027439

Yeah, removing flexi from APs was one of the little vindictive moves that PER love so much. No financial cost associated with it but they did away with it anyway.

It feels like they want to actively discourage serving HEOs from seeking promotion, having to give up a day's leave, flexitime, and flexi leave is very family-unfriendly.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121027161#Comment_121027161

ESB own Electric Ireland so they have a lot to do with selling electricity to customers.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121035800#Comment_121035800

Illegal to lower the price based on generating. They are legally obliged to act independetly. The fact ESB own them is utterly irrelevant. They made €0 profit in the residential side. That's a fact. Zero gouging happening by EI.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121032253#Comment_121032253

A 4 day week isn't, and shouldn't, be an excuse to not pay the proper rate for the job.

I can already do a 4 day week, it just means a 20% pay cut!

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121033106#Comment_121033106

I believe a lot of nurses currently work 3 12-hour shifts a week?

Teachers can hardly complain about not getting a 4 day week given the holidays they get.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121035735#Comment_121035735

I'm a pre-95 and am totally the opposite of your lazy generalisation.

I don't see why anyone, of any age, would be happy to become permanently poorer. Remember that the erosion in real terms of pay also applies to pension, and us pre-95s don't have a DSP pension to fall back on. It would be politically unacceptable to do to the DSP OAP what politicians are doing to the pensions of public servants.

Indestructable

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121035905#Comment_121035905

That's my experience of it. Like it or not. You'd be better off having this conversation with some of your similarly experienced colleagues.

And you can see it here with some of the other posters you're arguing with here, they are happy to be "poorer". Classic case of pulling the ladder up after themselves.