Public Pay Talks - see mod warning post 4293

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121226788#Comment_121226788

Unions planning a big drive to recruit new members in some bulletin I read last week. Which could go either way.

You may be right about what is offered.

But if that happens and it is accepted, it won't be on my conscience that I voted to accept a deal that is effectively a pay cut.

combat14

seems like social welfare is going up 12 euro a week or 4-5% next year, priavte sector employers are predicting pay rises of 4+% for next year ..

labour market is very tight at present

surely public sector workers will be looking for similar given some sectors are literally hemaroging workers

not to mention shocking toll of inflation again this year

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121226805#Comment_121226805

4-5% over 12 months and I'll vote no. Public sector should be looking for more then that.

lbunnae

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121226799#Comment_121226799

That's fair enough , look I want the most increase possible haha

naughto

No sign of the increase in this weeks pay either

gipi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227070#Comment_121227070

I'm a civil service pensioner and the latest increase was in my pension today (paid fortnightly)

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121226770#Comment_121226770

They made their choice and must accept the consequences, I wouldn't be feeling sorry for people who are freeloading off everyone else's backs.

wench

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227070#Comment_121227070

Mine came through today no problem.

Are you on an off-scale point?

Conqueror

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121220004#Comment_121220004

I can't seem to find any pay-related circulars from before 2000. Ahead of the 2002 General Election (17.05.2002), Circular 20/2001 increased pay by 2% in April 2001, and Circular 40/2001 increased pay by a further 5.5% in October (a further increase was backdated to 01.12.2001 as part of a benchmarking agreement in Circular 12/2003, but that was obviously well after the election).

Ahead of the 2007 General Election (24.05.2007), there were increases of 2.5% in June 2006 (Circular 7/2006), and 3% in December (41/2006), with 2% due a week after the election (Circular 21/2007).

There were no increases in the year leading up to the 2011 General Election, with FEMPI having been introduced under Circular 28/2009.

Ahead of the 2016 General Election (28.02.2016), there was a 2.5% increase for those on salaries under €24,000, and a 1% increase for those on salaries between €24,001 and €31,000 (Circular 17/2015).

Finally, ahead of the 2020 General Election (08.02.2020), there was a 1% increase for those on salaries under €30,000 in January 2019 (Circular 20/2018), a general 1.75% increase in September (Circular 17/2019), and a 0.5% increase for those on salaries under €32,000 in January 2020 (Circular 22/2019). Many would argue that the adjustments after 2015 constitutes pay restoration rather than pay increases, but I am using the language used in the Circulars.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121226770#Comment_121226770

That's their own issue, to be fair.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227183#Comment_121227183

Its come up a couple of times in chats with the younger new staff where I work, and they all balk at paying the deduction.

They say their pay is low enough already, and they already have a load of deductions to pay out of it.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

Acquiescence

For those looking for historic payscales;

civilservicepayscales.per.gov.ie

Limited to Civil Service, Garda, Defence and a few others iirc.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227378#Comment_121227378

Well, in fairness, the less union members, the weaker the power of collective bargaining.

So it does have a knock on affect on us all.

But in saying that, I wouldn't berate anyone for not joining if they don't see any value in being a member.

Given the performance of the various Unions over the pandemic, blended working, and in particular, last year's pay negotiations, I really couldn't blame them.

Yeah Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121226770#Comment_121226770

Well those thousands of civil and public servants know what to do if they want their voices heard, then, don't they? You can't expect anyone in the unions to take their wishes on board if they're not even bothered enough to sign up to be a member. There are far too many who want to have their cakes and eat it too. I was a branch secretary for a few years in my old place, including around the crash in 2009/2010/2011 and all that entailed, including when we (IMPACT) went on strike around Xmas 2009.

There were loads who had left the union in the previous years and stopped paying subs. As soon as talk of potential industrial action appeared in 2008, loads rejoined. It was a load of hassle processing forms and dealing with HQ on top of regular duties etc, and head office themselves were dealing with hundreds of branches all undergoing the same amount of flux. They notified branches that anyone re-joining was doing so with a minimum annual commitment of 12 months. If they left during that period, they were to be blacklisted from joining ever again. The talk kinda fizzled out and almost all of the rejoiners left over the following weeks.

When we eventually went on strike, HR notified all staff that anyone in the union was excused if on official industrial action, once they turned up and joined the actual picket outside the office. Anyone who didn't bother turning up or anyone not in the union, was expected to go to work as normal or to use their annual leave to cover any absence. There were quite a few who had their noses out of joint when membership was refused by HQ because they'd left, rejoined and left again multiple times over the previous 18 months. The whole point of a union is solidarity. You don't get to switch solidarity on and off like a tap when it suits you, that's kind of anathema to the whole point of solidarity. There are plenty of positives acheived over the years by the unions which apply to non-members and have improved their conditions immeasurably over the decades. If they can't be arsed to do the absolute bare minimum, there's not much they can expect in return*.

TL;DR - the reason they had no vote and no say on the matter is because they willingly chose to exclude themselves from the vote. Getting a vote and a say is easy, you fill out a form and get an extra line on your payslip. IF they want their voices heard so badly, pay your dues and we'll give you a microphone.

*One employee was at a grade identical to CO in everything bar the name, and was successful in an open EO competition. The local HR in the new department disagreed this grade was equivalent to CO, so he was starting at the entry point of the EO scale. This was about a 20% pay cut effectively, so he came to us asking for help. We agreed, even though technically he wasn't an employee of our department any more.

After a couple of weeks back and forth between us and the new HR crowd, it was discovered that he wasn't even a member of the union. Dude had cancelled his membership YEARS ago but still wanted to avail of all of the benefits and resources associated with membership. We informed the new HR we weren't representing him any longer and I never heard another word about it.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227685#Comment_121227685

I don't really disagree with anything you say here. I've been a member myself since the 80s.

But the problem is, how do the Unions encourage new, younger staff to join?

The attitudes to Union membership is completely different now, then it was when I joined.

Yeah Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227596#Comment_121227596

You can't have people dipping in and out when it suits or the long-term members will get a pain in their collective holes and they'll all start leaving and rejoining on a whim. Membership numbers will fall off a cliff, then ramp up around the time of talks/votes happening, then plummet again straight away. Brexiteers in Trade Union clothing.

Hotblack Desiato

I know I've done my fair share of complaining about pay deals over recent years, but I shudder to think what if anything PER would have offered if unions hadn't been there at all. It seems they're willing to go further and further down the OOM to get people and as long as warm bodies turn up they don't care. It was exactly the same in the early 00s, if you got a new CO who could string a sentence together they'd invariably soon leave for a better job.

readoutloud

Inflation rises to 6.4 per cent in September

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/2023/10/12/inflation-rises-to-64-per-cent-in-september/

Inflation hasn't been under 5% since 2021. A wage increase of 5% or less would be insulting.

Inflation is cumulative too.

Increase should be 12%.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227761#Comment_121227761

Again, I don't disagree.

But from what I can see membership numbers are falling off a cliff already and have been for a while.

Within one grade in my Dept only 20 out of approx 60 are union members. I know this as fact as I was involved in compiling the membership list.

trigger26

Joined the union when in my first dept but when OGCIO came in to take over the IT services the union were very poor, they sent in a new guy for our meetings who then went on study leave, it was if it was a forgone conclusion this was happening.

Yeah Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121228235#Comment_121228235

I'm not talking about falling numbers. I'm not sure why you or anyone would disagree with the above, however you seem to be insinuating that the two issues are somehow linked though. Or that what I'm saying is somehow detrimental to the numbers on the books. These are two completely separate issues. Your initial sentence that caught my attention was

"lets not forget there are thousands of civil and public servants who are not union members, and had no vote."

You never mentioned falling numbers or anything of the sort, so I don't know why you're shoehorning it into the conversation now. With the greatest of respect, fcuk those people. They had no vote because they chose to have no vote. They can change that by exerting the most minimal amount of effort ever....filling in a one-pager and sending it to accounts. So, yes, let's forget them if they're not prepared to join forces with their colleagues and fight their corner.

You can boost the numbers however you want, but allowing membership to be switched on and off like a tap when it suits the cheapskates is a fool's errand and will lead to fewer members, not more.

solidasarock

When I started as a CO I didn’t join the Union. On that little pay I couldn’t afford it.

Also, They only recently tossed out the 3 year leave cycle and not once did the Union didn’t do a thing.

I think it’s perfectly understandable if some don’t hold their Union in high regard.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121228799#Comment_121228799

I think most people have unrealistic expectations of their Union. I shudder to think what the working conditions would be like without them.

I have never bought the argument that someone can't afford it. They're designed to be cheap and affordable for everyone costing (in Siptus case), at most, 1.22% of your income. If you earn over €500 a week. It is less then 1% of your income.

Daith

It would be a different story if the people not in the union didn't get the same pay rise that the union negotiated.

But then even a lot of civil servants who negotiate with the unions get the benefits of whatever increase is made too.

It just means there's less value in joining one if you get the benefits anyway

EduKate

I'd find it difficult to justify financially supporting an organisation if it recommends another deal that means I take real-term pay cut relative to inflation.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121228853#Comment_121228853

Leaving aside that Unions are stronger the more members they have and that not being part of a Union means you have no voice, a Union also does a lot of other things like represent you in unfair dismissals etc. Unions are pointless, except when you need them. For the tiny cost it takes to join one, its a no brainer for anyone in the public sector.

Daith

What's the alternative? No union and no pay rise? Or a fixed pay rise linked to something?

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121228696#Comment_121228696

I honestly don't know what argument you're trying to make, or what bee you have in your bonnet at this point.

My comment that you've latched onto was a direct response to another poster who said (referring to last year's deal)

"I thought it was a great deal. Did over 90% off us not accept?"

I then pointed out (to them) that the "90% of us" they were referring to was not a true reflection of the entire C&PS as non-union members had no vote.

That's all.

it was you who first brought "falling numbers" into it, not me.

I hope this clears this up for you.

Yeah Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121228989#Comment_121228989

This is my last post on this.

Someone said 90% of us wanted the last deal. You tried to pour cold water on this statement by making the distinction between 90% of us, and 90% of us who are union members, as if that makes one iota of difference. There is no point making a distinction between those who join the union and vote and those who don't. If they want their voices heard, they know what to do. Until that happens, we (those in the union) can ignore what they're saying on such matters.

I said the numbers would fall off a cliff if you allowed people to join/leave as they see fit and you tried to claim they already are falling off a cliff. I guarantee you, the membership would fall to almost zero if this were allowed. That 20 out of 60 you mentioned earlier would drop to less than 5. You seemed to be making the point that we should be doing everything we can to encourage new members, including allowing members to come and go as they please. This will have the opposite effect. If I've taken you up wrong, I apologise, but that's how it comes across.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121228680#Comment_121228680

I can not even get them to reply to repeated questions about how our IT staff are being treated