Public Pay Talks - see mod warning post 4293

spark_tank

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121399895#Comment_121399895

That's one thing I do agree with you on, certainly over the last few years anyway. Negotiations all seems like a show and it feels very unlikely that the government could have given us any less.

Lets hope the Unions do a better job of serving their members this time around.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121399939#Comment_121399939

Nobody wants to be on a picket.

I am happy to strike unless I see my pay restored (or the intention to restore by structuring a deal to facilitate that).

It won't be an all out strike if the Unions cannot settle on a deal. It will be one day strikes, work to rule etc.

spark_tank

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121399939#Comment_121399939

Nobody wants but it seems the majority are willing to go down that road if a fair deal isn't received. Its what a few poor pay agreements will do.

A survey by Fórsa, has revealed very strong support for unions to pursue inflation-matching pay increases, including in the next round of public service pay talks.

The survey, which drew completed responses from more than 20,000 of the union’s members nationwide, was commissioned by Fórsa and conducted by Amárach research in the second half of April.

More than 80% of respondents said it was ‘very important’ that that pay negotiations secure increases that match inflation, and this response was especially high (90%) among younger workers.

The survey found a clear majority of respondents are in favour of Fórsa organising a ballot for industrial action if negotiated increases are below the rate of inflation, with only 5% opposed, while the remainder said they would consider their support for an industrial action ballot when details of any pay offer are known.

The union said that if such a ballot became necessary support would be likely to increase, and noted a higher level of support for an industrial action ballot among younger Fórsa members.

lbunnae

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121399796#Comment_121399796

Slim minority my arse!! That deal would be voted in with ease again.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121399939#Comment_121399939

To secure proper pay? Sure

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121399939#Comment_121399939

Work to rule. No need for a picket and you still get paid...

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121399977#Comment_121399977

Dont forget they did try to get away with less last time.

The first offer was 5% and it caused the talks to break down in June 2022.

Eventually they increased the offer to 6.5% in September, with the first 3% backdated.

They would absolutely try to get away with less, if they could.

lbunnae

Good news , talks starting by end of the week. And It article mentions pursuit of a short term 1 year deal.

pc7

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121400472#Comment_121400472

It would be great to get it sorted and some payment early in the new year, will it likely be March now?

spark_tank

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121400344#Comment_121400344

There are obviously negotiation tactics involved. If the government feel that they want to offer 4.5% in 2024 then they're not going to bring that straight to the table.

Sultan of Bling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121399939#Comment_121399939

Doesn't have to be a picket, could be a work to rule.

No requirement for the nuclear option............yet.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121399622#Comment_121399622

I know the science on this but in reality is that what each individual is actually doing?

Not everyone is effected by inflation in the same way. Its simply daft to suggest that everyone is X percent poorer because the headline rate of inflation is X percent.

The logic required to suggest that accepting a payrise makes your poorer than before you had the pay rise is absolutely astounding.

The reality is that very few members of unions have the stomach for long term strike action and the unions themselves cannot afford it - most people are realistic.

Suggestions like above that there should be 15% increases across the board over a calendar year are pure insane - you could not go out on strike with that aim - you'd still be on strike or worse still.

To be honest I have heard so little from any union on the specifics of these particular talks, I'd find it difficult to know what the position they are taking on talks are.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121399904#Comment_121399904

I didn't speak to one person in the real world who regreted voting for the deal - yeah they were slighted peeved that it wasn't more but sure isn't that always the case.

combat14

Pay increases worth 12.7% for 2023 - 2026 agreed for mechanical workers on top of 2.8% increase which took effect in January 2023 i.e. 15.5% over 3 years or an average of 5.15% a year

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2023/1121/1417766-mechanical-workers-pay-deal/

EduKate

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121400794#Comment_121400794

Nobody suggested everybody is affected the same way by inflation. It's a straw man argument.

Overall, voting for a pay deal that doesn't match inflation is a vote to make yourself poorer because your purchasing power has declined. That isn't "astounding logic", it's sound logic.

A majority of union members have demonstrated they're quite happy to vote for a real-term pay decrease.

Accepting that without even trying to fight it is a terrible strategy imo. If the government knows union members will vote for anything without putting up a fight, the logical thing for them to do is offer less and less each time, with public sector workers falling further and further behind in real terms.

lbunnae

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121400542#Comment_121400542

Really not sure , but it is a one year deal maybe the bulk could come fast ish

Hotblack Desiato

To say that inflation doesn't affect everyone equally is a bit ridiculous when the largest increases have been in electricity and food. Maybe if you live off-grid on an organic vegetable patch...

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121401094#Comment_121401094

It's astounding logic to suggest that accepting an increase in take home pay is a pay cut or indeed making yourself poorer, particularly on an individualised basis which is what people vote on....which is why the statement that inflation doesn't hit everyone equally isn't a straw man argument. Quite the opposite.

90 percent of union members voted based on their individual circumstances not on the broad brush strokes of commentary that yourself and others seem to think are gospel.

As for the negotiating hand of the government of the day, once you cannot attract or retain people into the sector for one reason or another terms and conditions have to be made better. The state simply cannot function otherwise.

The social and employment landscape has changed drastically from forty years ago. People have many many more options on careers and employability which changes entirely the landscape on attraction and retention of staff.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121401309#Comment_121401309

I spend less on food and use less units of electricity now than 3-4 years ago spending slightly more on electric but not the percentage rates discussed here.

When I vote for pay deals I do take on the me fein attitude as everyone else does. The suggestion that I am voting for a paycut for myself is moronic.

combat14

If your raise this year was less than 7.1%, it didn't keep up with inflation — and you effectively got a pay cut

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/raise-keep-up-with-inflation-7-percent-pay-cut-2022-12%3famp

e.g.

nominal "pay rise": 5%

inflation at for example: 7%

real terms "pay rise": -2%

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121401746#Comment_121401746

Look at the logic above and have a think about it for a minute

AyeGer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121400542#Comment_121400542

The way inflation has been going we’d need 5 or 6% increase asap followed by a few 2 or 3% increases over the next 2 or 3 years. About 12% over 3 years.

Calahonda52

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119196715#Comment_119196715

Re this vitriol.

Also, private sector works are going to lie and spin things to guilt and making public servants look greedy. It is essential they are ignored as well. This isn't a popularity contest we are entering.

I did a presentation to 300 relatively junior PS workers a few years back and one of the questions I asked was: who pays your wages?

Answer: Government.

And where does Gov get the mula?

No idea.

Was a revelation to think that the private sector, in all its guises, is the main contributor.

Re this

making public servants look greedy.

We are long past that.

Now its just a question of scale

Re guilt

Not even in the PS lexicon

EduKate

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121401531#Comment_121401531

Not sure if you're being disingenuous or genuinely don't understand how inflation works.

There's little point engaging in either scenario.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121402007#Comment_121402007

On a purely personal basis inflation hasn't affected me from an overall disposable income perspective - which ultimately is what I care about.

The last pay agreement increased my disposable income the next one will as well. If I think I can do better elsewhere then that's up to me.

If enough staff in the PS and CS think they can do better elsewhere thats a major issue for the state.

I think thats as clear as the nose on your face - its a pity it has to be pointed out in such obvious terms.

It's pretty obvious that a large percentage of the union members think/thought the same.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121401531#Comment_121401531

The social and employment landscape has changed drastically from forty years ago.

It certainly has. And not always for the better.

There was much less of this "mé féin" attitude which, imo, is nothing to either brag about, or be proud off.

And which ultimately, weakens all.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121402100#Comment_121402100

You are suggesting the fact that we have more employment and employment opportunities in this country than EVER before is a bad thing? That opportunity is a bad thing? That we are not beholden to a very narrow number of careers and employers is a bad thing?

There's as much mé féin attitude now as then - and suggesting otherwise is pure nonsense.

naughto

Any 1 that got the last pay increase how much did ye get?

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121402281#Comment_121402281

I think you know very well I was not talking about "employment and employment opportunities" in general. Don't be disingenous.

As far as I'm concerned, if someone's attitude is "I'm a mé féiner" then they do not belong in a union where they would actually use their vote without consideration for the impact on their lower paid colleagues and the private sector would probably suit them better too. So they should own it, and stay out of unions.

In my day, being called a "mé féiner" was considered an insult,

mé féiner (plural mé féiners)

1. (Ireland, derogatory) Someone who acts from self-interest, rather than the common good or the national interest. 

But if its now being worn as some kind of badge of honour then things have definitely changed. And yes, in my opinion, definitely not for the better.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121402742#Comment_121402742

Look, everyone in union is ultimately a me feiner....looking out for themselves, if they think union membership will further their own interests they will stay in it. Dont go telling me the are in the union so that the poorest in Irish society benefit.......or any other group for that matter.

I ain 'wearing' it as any badge, just pointing out a very clear fact that differs from the narrative of some here.