Public Pay Talks - see mod warning post 4293

lbunnae

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121440940#Comment_121440940

Yep i said the same and talked about doubling and trebling starter wages but apparently thats untrue. Completly agree about the dole , it is a tiny issue in this country but its so emotive for so many. The teachers emigrating are largely heading to a tax free zone or Oz which is nearly a rite of passage at this stage , we cant and nor should we compete with that ,they are very well paid for the hours they work- what we can do there is actually offer permanent jobs/hrs to young teachers. Yeah their unions are bonkers , will sell out the newer members no bother. Yeah i agree re the unions , i think a one year deal of anything near 10% would be great.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121441012#Comment_121441012

That Garda article was absolute horseshit. They carefully chose the period of comparison to include the backdated pay rise. They also included Garda overtime and shift allowances. You can't and shouldn't compare what someone earns for their 60th hour a week with someone else's 35th and last. You also can't compare what someone earns at 3AM on a Friday night with what someone else earns at 3PM on a Tuesday afternoon.

Teachers are leaving Dublin in their droves because they can't afford to live there - either for a more rural area or out of the country. Interesting thread on Teaching & Lecturing forum here

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058297863/school-resignations-and-recruitment-problems-2023-2024#latest

Yeah Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121437924#Comment_121437924

For the third time, you didn't say nearly doubles without one promotion.

You said guaranteed to double or treble. Full stop.

Now, you're trying to claim that what you really meant is "A COs salary is guaranteed to double or treble, provided they get a couple of promotions along the way". This isn't what you said, you're changing the goalposts mid-argument because your claims have been shown to be false, and you're losing the argument. Also, it's a fecking ridiculously stupid argument to make. The private sector equivalent, which you are still claiming doesn't exist remember, is "A street sweeper's salary is guaranteed to treble if they get promoted three or four times over their career". Yeah, course it does Einstein. Everyone's does, it's called getting a better job.

There is no way for a COs salary to treble or quadruple. There is, if they get promoted but that's now not a COs salary any more now, is it? Its also not a guarantee they get promoted, but that's besides the point. John, Mary and Frank are all COs in 2001. Frank and Mary get three promotions each up to AP level by the year 2025. John gets zero promotions. Does John's wages treble or quadruple? No. They don't even double. Meanwhile, John's brother David has been working in a supermarket the last 25 years and his wages have gone up 4 and a half times what they were while John hasn't even doubled.

This is what people are trying to tell you, but you can't get into your skull. The whole crux of your argument is that this doesn't happen in the retail sector. This 100% does happen in the retail sector, all the time, everywhere. You have been shown facts and figures which prove this, which you haven't even addressed in the slightest, and you're still getting confused. So not only is your claim that growth in the PS is guaranteed while the private sector have to struggle, it has been proven to you that the OPPOSITE is true, lower paid private sector wages have increased 4.5 times while public have increased less than double, and STILL you won't let go.

You're now talking about inflation of the Quinnsworth wages which hasn't been taken into account, while you blindly ignore the fact that inflation hasn't been taken into account for the COs wages from that period either. You can't take it into account on one side and then not do the same for the other without looking like a complete dope.

If EO wages kept up with the min wage increases over the last quarter century, they'd be on 80k starting salary. Instead it's barely over 33k. This blows your entire argument out of the water, you haven't a leg to stand on. The more you keep banging this drum, though, the more everyone realises that you don't know what you're talking about.

Don't bother replying, I'll not be answering any more of your idiotic, ill-educated, rambling, incoherent and contradictory nonsense any more.

lbunnae

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121441643#Comment_121441643

Didnt even bother reading all that bile. "Mentall ill 7 year old". You have got something wrong with your life. Blocked for future.

Yeah Right

Thank fcuk.

solidasarock

Call me a wacko communist or whatever.

But if we want public services to exist in Dublin, public servants should be paid enough to live near Dublin.

lbunnae

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121441869#Comment_121441869

Oh lordy , dublin allowance is a big bugaboo with civil and public servants.

Hotblack Desiato

Posters in that Teaching & Lecturing thread I posted are mostly not opposed to it even if not Dublin themselves.

Given the self-serving grasping and petulance which was revealed in my union's rural membership though during the decentralisation fiasco, they'd oppose it out of pure spite.

combat14

looks like the government have played this beautifully ..

give away everything 14.2 billion to social welfare recipients

wait till very end of year for inflation to hopefully drop and recession to kick in to claim inability to pay for impact of massive cost of living increases

Latest CSO figures confirm economy in recession

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2023/1201/1419565-cso-third-quarter-economic-figures/

will the voting workers buy it is the question?

spark_tank

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121442304#Comment_121442304

Just another failure by the Unions? December and they're only starting talks like. How's that for representation.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121442320#Comment_121442320

Considering the last deal hasn't expired yet, its hard to start negotiations earlier. Bashing unions for no reason.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121442162#Comment_121442162

Posters here who are rural have said they would oppose it too.

spark_tank

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121442419#Comment_121442419

I hate responding but honestly have you really any idea what you are you talking about? Its standard practice.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121442304#Comment_121442304

They are so predictable at this stage.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121442419#Comment_121442419

What's hard about it? A deal doesn't have to expire before you start negotiating.

They could have started back in September.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121442547#Comment_121442547

And what are they doing now? The deal hasn't expired.

The government are not going to negotiate in September right before the budget. The ministers are too busy. July/august is too early.

Ezeoul

Well what where they doing in June, and September 2022 then - which I might remind you, was also right before the Budget?

What they're doing now, is using delay tactics.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121442516#Comment_121442516

Do you actually know what you're talking about? Most people in this thread have no idea how the negotiations actually work. Yourself included.

You're just bashing unions. We hadn't even received the final increment but you want the unions to go off and negotiate for 2024? The government would have rightly told them where to go.

There's absolutely no reason to have started this process earlier then they have. There won't be another increment for months.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121442781#Comment_121442781

We clearly know more than you, because you're completely wrong. Stop now, before you dig yourself in any deeper.

Also, the final installment (NOT increment) under this Agreement was on 1st October, 2023.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121442799#Comment_121442799

I don't see how that's clear at all. Pure arrogance.

Just more of the "i don't agree with your opinion so youre wrong narrative" that is always present on this thread.

If the unions agreed a deal in July and inflation had gone the other way everyone would be up in arms with how stupid they are.

The current deal expires at the end of the year. A new deal could well be agreed before the current one expires. You're complaining about something that hasnt happened yet. Of course, you don't care.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121442837#Comment_121442837

Oh just stop with the doubling down.

Also amused at you thinking Ministers are "too busy" in September.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121442867#Comment_121442867

No, you think I'm wrong. Repeatedly stating the same thing doesn't change my opinion. Other people can have a different opinion to you as alien a concept as that may be to you.

When the unions activated the review clause forcing a renegotiation? And those talks concluded in August. They didnt negotiate in September. Bit different isn't it?

The minister for finance is a bit busy in September alright for obvious reasons.

I like how you avoided that the current deal has not expired and that they are negotiating before the current deal expires as you want them too.

spark_tank

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121442781#Comment_121442781

You probably mean increase and not increment. I never said anything about entering discussions before the final increase but they literally did just that last year. So its not quite as mind blowing as you seem to imagine.

An increment is an addition employees receive, usually annually, on the anniversary of their start date for a fixed period.

There's no excuse for only getting going in December.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121442893#Comment_121442893

I meant increase not increment.

The current deal has not expired. They negotiated an extension to a deal after activating a review clause. They did not enter negotiations for a new deal last year.

You're comparing apples and oranges. Again, the current deal is still running. It expires at the end of the month. They've started before the current deal expires.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121442888#Comment_121442888

It's Friday afternoon, and I couldn't be arsed to keep arguing with you.

You're only exposing your own inexperience and lack of knowledge here, yet again.

If you want to be pedantic, the talks in 2022 broke down on 17th June, resumed on 29th August, and concluded in the early hours of 30th August. Members were balloted in September, before the Budget.

Also, the Dáil is in recess from mid-July to mid-September, each year.

The Ministers must be so busy on their holliers.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121440954#Comment_121440954

The article discussed headline pay but the applied real world factors showing that relative to EU our nurses are less well paid, in actual terms.

Cherry picking tends to be frowned upon

MrRigsby

I think along with a pay rise the unions should be pushing for an extra allowance for those working in major urban areas like Dublin , Cork and Galway similar to what happens in the UK . A guard , nurse, teacher etc working in rural Mayo or Cavan will have a much higher disposable income after paying bills than a colleague on the same wages in South Dublin for example as accommodation and everything else is so much more expensive. It might make it easier to attract staff into areas struggling to fill for example teacher vacancies or to recruit guards . Would be recruit guards couldn’t consider Dublin now unless living with relatives

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121442925#Comment_121442925

Ministers relevant to the pay talks busy with the budget.

So they didn't negotiate in September. You were wrong.

They didn't negotiate a new pay deal it was the activation of clause and the government had no alternative but to enter talks to renegotiate the deal.

The current deal is still in effect and does t expire until the end of the month.

Do you want to double down again? Or does your arrogance sorry "experience" indicate you know more then me? Btw, what is your experience? SFA. Years complaining.

I trust the unions are doing their job instead of complaining when they should or shouldn't have entered talks. Thank God people like you are nowhere near the talks. I want a deal.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121444574#Comment_121444574

Bren, let me refresh your memory - it was you who weighed in on the timings of negotiations, when you made some big statement about negotiations not happening in September because "Ministers are too busy before the Budget" and "July /August being too early" because of possible changes to inflation.

I, amongst others, pointed out that negotiations on new deals always start before the current deal expires, but you don't seem to want to accept thisd.

So, to be pedantic, you're making a huge deal out of the negotiations last year being on 29th /30th August - so close to September, that it's literally ridiculous that you're arguing over it.

I'm also confident given your self-confessed limited knowledge of the Civil Service (and that you didn't seem to know that the Dáil is in recess from mid-July to mid-September each year) that you are not as familiar with ministerial functions and budget preparation as you think you are.

But, to get to the actual point, your bone of contention which led to all of the above seems to be "why would they start negotiations when the current deal hasn't even expired yet?"

Well, following your logic, the negotiations shouldn't be starting until January 2024 at the earliest.

Yet they have already started. Why?

The answer - because it is normal that negotiations on a new deal begin well in advance of a current deal expiring. Which is all anyone tried to tell you.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121444607#Comment_121444607

Let's not rewrite history. I know when the dail does and does not sit. I said (or was implying) the relevant Ministers are busy preparing the budget in September to negotiate a new pay deal. The pay deal is a massive drain on their resources. That is obvious. Whether the Dail is sitting or not is irrelevant. You don't want to accept that.

The current pay deal HAS NOT EXPIRED. You won't accept that.

Negotiating a new deal before one is over is normal. 6 months before one is over in the middle of a strange inflationary period makes no sense from either side. You won't accept that.

You're argument that 'they negotiated it in September last year' is wrong. They didn't. It was concluded by then. That timeline is important because you know what the minister(s) was doing in September? Preparing the fuxking budget. Negotiating an extension to a pay deal because there was a review clause was triggered by the Unions meant the government had to renegotiate. The situation this year and last year were different. You won't accept that.

You're casually avoiding that a review clause was activated last year. That makes this year andast year very different. You won't accept that. I'm assuming you didn't know or forgot it was because of a review clause.

The pay deal was set to expire December 2022. There were no negotiations for a new deal at the point you indicated. You won't accept that.

The Unions are the experts. It's not bad planning or bad work, there are reasons it's happening now. You won't accept that.

I have limited knowledge of how grades in the civil service work. I'm willing to admit what i do and don't know. I like how you started by not giving your experience... You work in the civil service. You have no knowledge of the other side. I am assuming you've never worked in a union, i have. You have never worked for a TD or Minister, i have (only in the summers and a long long time ago when I was young). You have absolutely no idea what these people do. You have no idea how the talks work. You understand the pay talks effect people outside the Civil Service?

You're fixated on belittling other posters because you know more and everyone else is wrong and inexperienced. It's arrogance, not intelligence or experience. Point out where I'm factually wrong. Argue the points. Otherwise it's just opinion and other people can have a different opinion to you. This isn't a forum for those that agree with Ezeols opinion only.

I've never said when I think the negotiations should have started. You're taking a quote out of context there but for clarification, negotiating a new deal 6 months before the current one expires at a time when inflation is rampant, and right before the budget when the relevant department is very busy preparing for the budget, is bonkers. It's not going to happen. It makes no sense for either side to do that. You won't accept that.

Let's get to the point, bashing unions because they didn't start 6 months early is bizarre. They have started a month before the end of the deal. They might have a new deal agreed before the current one expires. You won't accept that.

I've never once in this thread seen you accept someone else's view. If you can provide your logic and rationale as to why, I'm happy to change my opinion. You don't debate like that. It's your opinion and everyone else is wrong.