Public Pay Talks - see mod warning post 4293

Gusser09

Of course they deserve an increase. That doesn't mean they deserve an increase more than an EO or HEO.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119243666#Comment_119243666

A CO in my section resigned last year for a job in the private sector, giving that as the exact reason.

They were only on the second or third point of the scale and living on cheap pasta for most of the month to meet the rent of a room in a house-share.

Gusser09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119243707#Comment_119243707

BUt that's always been the case. When I started in 2004 as a CO I was getting 320 net per week. The only real option is to get rid of the CO grade like they done away with the CA grade.

Galwayhurl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119243685#Comment_119243685

I disagree.

Because if they dont get a more sizeable increase, the CS will find it very difficult to find COs in the likes of Dublin and the other cities.

And also because it's crap money and they deserve a bit more.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119243436#Comment_119243436

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119243547#Comment_119243547

I don't necessarily disagree with either of you in the normal course of pay negotiations, BUT - these increases outside of what was already agreed (the 1% in October) are being negotiated because of the massive increases in the cost of living - not on who has the more responsible day to day role.

5% to a HEO on point 5 of the HEO scale @ 56700 is €2835 gross.

5% to a CO on point 5 of the CO scale @ 29368 is €1468 gross.

So I'm sorry, but I can see justification for COs (or anyone under a certain point) to receive a bigger % increase in this case.

skidmarkoner

As a CO point 1 in the scale I wouldn't advise anyone to enter at this grade. Every week is a struggle to put food on the table. The only way I'm keeping afloat is the money I save on travel.

I live rurally and my costs would 1/3 that of my friends in city areas.

The money is bad but when I took the job I planed for the year ahead until inflation started rising and now I hope for an opportunity to open up somewhere on this EO panel.

This week the water was cut off in my estate due to works I actually had to choose between bread or water. This is the reality as a CO in 2022

The hardest part is the fact that I could earn double this in private sector with my education and experience

They need to get these talks going and fast.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119243741#Comment_119243741

Unless things change, in a few years it'll be impossible to recruit a teacher, nurse or garda in Dublin. It's already very difficult for Dublin schools to fill posts. Dublin Bus are recruiting and training drivers but 80% of them resign in the first few months. All of this is down to the stupid cost of housing. Nobody on the outside will really care if the CS can't recruit COs. But you can't decentralise a teaching, nursing or policing post... or a bus driver.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119243760#Comment_119243760

Sure but the CO will be on standard rate tax, the HEO on higher rate tax...

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119243892#Comment_119243892

+100%

If rents were reasonable, wage pressures would decrease

We sort of nearly think of rising rents and house prices as a good thing, we're nearly proud of them.

We need to see high rents as a massive competitiveness issue.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119243901#Comment_119243901

Not for all of it. And there is talk of introducing a new rate, which someone mentioned earlier.

This may be one of those cases were I believe a sliding scale across the grades would be fairer. But sure look, it won't happen that way.

But what I said to that PO when I was a CA, "2% of what you're earning is a decent amount. 2% of what I'm earning is **** all" still holds true today.

yes but the end point of that argument is everyone gets paid the same.

now i like that in the PS the top earners (or thereabouts -sec gen or whatever) are on ten or 15 times the amount of a CO on point 1. that sounds a lot but compare what the CEO of a company tends to make (entire package) relative to a secretarial type role and it can run many many times that.

but i think it would be a mistake to constantly erode the pay differential between lower and higher grades and call that "fairer". its a bit of a short term win long term disaster that imo.

Gusser09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119243982#Comment_119243982

Well that's it. Extra money is part or most of the incentive to get promoted. if the difference between pay is eroded too much why would anyone put themselves forward for the extra responsibilities without a decent chunk of money for it. Why bother. It makes no sense over the long term when you think about it.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119243931#Comment_119243931

It's much much worse than that. It's a massive quality of life issue. 3 generations of families crammed into 3-bed houses because the middle generation could no longer afford to live independently and had to move "home". People forced to move away from their work (and their kids' schools) because they're evicted and can't find anything affordable in their area (or anything at all) putting intolerable pressure on them with commutes and school runs. Etc etc. Even those who are doing OK at the moment are dreading a rent rise or notice to quit. It's a nightmare for anyone renting.

jaffa20

There is no indication at all that talks have recommenced with the unions. Just seems to be rumours from Tainaiste that they hoped to start talks again.

Wish they'd just get on with it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119243982#Comment_119243982

As I said, this round of pay negotiations is not supposed to be about being rewarded for your role or your grade, and was triggered due to the increases in living costs and inflation.

Its not a typical situation.

And we are all facing those increases in our bills at the same rate of inflation etc, whether a Sec Gen or a CO.

So it strikes me as unfair that an across-the-board set % rate will glean a HEO double the amount in cash terms (and relief from the pressure of increased bills) than a CO will receive.

Even though Bord Gais or Electricity Ireland has applied the same % increase in their unit prices on the utility bills of both, or Tesco is charging them the same price increases on their groceries at checkout.

Anyway, thats how I feel about it.

combat14

if the government drove down rents / mortgages i.e. sorted housing issue be very little need for pay rises apart from energy issue

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119244338#Comment_119244338

Driving up the value of property was driving the economic recovery. Unfortunately they don't seem to know (or want) to take their foot off the pedal.

mosii

Is any percentage negotiated rise, on top of the 1% coming in october?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119244372#Comment_119244372

Thats what these talks are supposed to be negotiating.

mosii

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119244505#Comment_119244505

Ok Tks.

squigglestrebor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119244135#Comment_119244135

Heo wouldnt get double the amount a CO gets.

exitstageleft

Does any rise have to come in October? Could it be introduced earlier?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119244135#Comment_119244135

i dont want to hard disagree on this but we have already seen steps in all/most of the restoration struggle so far to proportionately benefit the lower grades

we also have a redistributive tax system that is going to see a lot more of a HEOs pay rise never make their bank account

Im not going to be against any such steps this time around or anything but I dont think it should be a priority every single time either

ParkRunner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119243790#Comment_119243790

I would disagree. I think the best senior managers are those who spent time at the more junior grades and worked their way up. A CO wage is not great, to the point of it being difficult to manage usual bills, but anyone that has what it takes to move up through the grades will not spend long at the lowest levels and will be rewarded.

It’s also very good to experience what it’s like to be in the shoes of those you manage, and to build up the public sector specific experience

lightspeed

Anybody know where these negotiations are at?

I understand a 5% increase spread over 2 years was rejected by forsa if I'm understanding media reports correctly. However, when are they getting into a room again and expecting to walk away with a deal? Has anything further been scheduled ?

I had hoped there might have been some update in the news today.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119244353#Comment_119244353

How do you figure that out? Rising property values (and hence rents) benefit very few - many of whom are low-tax property funds, some of which are even offshore.

Meanwhile the rising rents screw over hundreds of thousands of households and they have less money to spend in the economy as a result.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119244698#Comment_119244698

It's old news.

You're only considering the recent situation but we've had 30yrs or so of this.

HGVRHKYY

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119244698#Comment_119244698

Thought the same, increased housing/rent prices is a consequence of the increased demand that's a result of the population growth brought about by the economic recovery due to the FDI from MNCs bringing loads more high paying jobs here. Those high paying jobs results in more income tax collected, and of course the corporation tax, as well as more VAT and duties from the increased consumption of the larger population/higher demand

Flinty997

You've kinda ignored the building sector entirely and the part it played in the Celtic Tiger and the recovery afterwards.

skidmarkoner

How can expect people to make it to senior levels if they can't afford basic needs in one of the cheaper parts of the country on the junior wages. Low earners are hit hardest by inflation and well we won't have any people applying if they can't even pay for food.