Public Pay Talks - see mod warning post 4293

Peter Flynt · 30-12-2023 12:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121549406#Comment_121549406

3-5% is a real terms pay cut.

Peter Flynt · 30-12-2023 12:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121548922#Comment_121548922

What you should be worried about is the calibre and intelligence of the union leaders who keep returning with crap deals, FEMPI still in place and 15 year old unpaid austerity hours still in place. Weird you don't seem to respect your own colleagues who aren't even given a say in such matters.

Norrie Rugger Head · 30-12-2023 1:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121549680#Comment_121549680

Didn't think that I needed a "sarcasm" tag on that one...

Peter Flynt · 30-12-2023 2:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121547763#Comment_121547763

Why not?

The talks could be held in one of the committee rooms of Dáil Éireann where cameras are all set up. We are entitled to know what questions are being asked, what questions are not being asked, why it is that senior civil servants/politicians on six figure salaries beginning with '2' believe that teachers/nurses/others on six or seven times less should accept what they're given or emigrate.

They're held in secret to protect politicians, senior civil servants and useless union leaders.

bren2001 · 30-12-2023 4:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121550069#Comment_121550069

You realize they sit in seperate rooms for the majority? They are not sitting and discussing things constantly. Livestreaming the "discussions" would be pointless.

Secondly, if it was live streamed, the government could see what the Unions position is. That's not helpful. It weakens the Unions.

Finally, the idea that "we pay their wages" is as logical as the taxpayer paying your wages. Would you like your job to be livestreamed? Obviously not.

They're judged on the deal they strike and recommend/don't recommend to the members. I pay my union fee, I've no right to micromanage them. Quit if you feel like you're no longer getting value for your money.

Peter Flynt · 30-12-2023 4:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121550437#Comment_121550437

They don't sit in separate rooms. The general secretary of four unions with one guy from ICTU are in negotiation whilst the rest of the unions are left outside, effectively with no say. There are people in a "separate room" - the rest of the unions.

The government know the union's position because senior civil servants at the DPER are telling the politicians their position.

Yet the whole thing is rigged and a charade because the DPER decide how much they're willing to spend and that's it. They don't waver from that. The unions are given an opportunity to "have a say" to make it look as if there are serious negotiations going on when, in reality, there are not. The DPER likes to get the unions involved in sectoral bargaining, a possible look at roster changes, perhaps a discussion on unpaid CP hours without ever committing to anything or, in the end, yielding on anything.

By streaming live these discussions this charade would be revealed for all to see.

There's also another reason to stream live. This is supposed to be a democratic country.

bren2001 · 30-12-2023 5:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121550485#Comment_121550485

I'll leave you with your tin foil hat.

You've absolutely no idea how the negotiations works.

Peter Flynt · 30-12-2023 5:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121550626#Comment_121550626

I do. I know one of the guys in the room outside. Not my problem if you don't believe me. They've met ELEVEN times and still apparently haven't discussed pay. That's how farcical this process is.

bren2001 · 30-12-2023 5:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121550639#Comment_121550639

It's pure conspiracy theory stuff.

Peter Flynt · 30-12-2023 5:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121550654#Comment_121550654

Says the guy who doesn't want anything streamed live.

As I stated before I wouldn't be surprised if the DPER are on this thread in some form.

combat14 · 30-12-2023 11:27pm

Employers warning of massive increases to cost of business next year .. with considerable price rises all but gauranteed

public sector unions will have to fight for a substantial pay deal to simply maintain existing eroded terms and conditions

"Increases in the national minimum wage, the introduction of the planned living wage, new sick pay entitlements, improvements to parent's leave and benefit, the right to request remote working, hikes in PRSI and the new auto-enrolment pension scheme could push business costs up by 36%, the research found"

https://www.rte.ie/news/2023/1230/1423383-business-concerns-2024/

Norrie Rugger Head · 30-12-2023 11:52pm

Employers running failing businesses are going to be unable to continue to exploit their employees...

Ezeoul · 31-12-2023 12:03am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121552224#Comment_121552224

Anyone with half a brain knows that these businesses are going to raise prices to pass as much of their increased costs onto their customers.

Even the ones that are making massive profits.

And we'll be expected to continue to absorb these rising prices, as we have already been doing for the last few years, even while our own pay and spending power continues to be further eroded.

readoutloud · 31-12-2023 12:33am

Shawn Fain, an American unionist and president of the Auto Workers Union (UAW), issued live, weekly broadcasts describing the state of negotiations when he was in discussions with GM Motors (and others) for the last few months. He got a huge win for the workers there.

Would it be too much to ask our unions to do a better job keeping us informed? Maybe they could at least sign up to boards.ie...

readoutloud · 31-12-2023 12:35am

Basically, I'm not sure that this - it's a secret, hush-hush, don't mention the talks, approach is favouring anyone but the government.

Norrie Rugger Head · 31-12-2023 1:54am

We've no Mick Lynch that's for sure

naughto · 31-12-2023 2:21pm

So nothing happened untill the 11th is that were we are at?

Norrie Rugger Head · 31-12-2023 2:54pm

So a union deadline of the end of the year has gone by without a whimper

There should have been mild industrial action planned in several sectors, for the first week in Jan, if the government allowed this to drag into 2024...

bren2001 · 31-12-2023 3:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121553812#Comment_121553812

How would you phrase that ballot?

"Unless we have a deal, we are going on strike?" - that's very hard to settle isn't it?

Peter Flynt · 31-12-2023 3:11pm

Govt didn't even seek a deal until late November - delay, delay and more delay is their cynical policy. They don't want to pay up and the pathetic amount they offered in 2023 (2% "increases") is not likely to be surpassed in 2024.

As no deal is now the situation industrial action (Work-to-Rule) should be beginning from tomorrow but the unions are so weak and powerless they can't even bring themselves to mention the words.

Don't be surprised if this charade is extended into February or maybe even March.

Ezeoul · 31-12-2023 4:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121553700#Comment_121553700

Irish Congress of Trade Unions (ICTU) are meeting again on 11th January to sign-off on the wording of ballots for industrial action.

There is no date set for a return of talks with DPER. I don't expect that to be before the end of January.

Peter Flynt · 31-12-2023 4:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121554154#Comment_121554154

Anyone get the impression that (as elections approach in June) FF/FG/Greens might be seeking to provoke strike action in the public sector in order to take the focus away from other areas where they're also disastrously incompetent (e.g. immigration, housing, etc...) and/or delaying for as long as possible to provide a deal with a decent increase until as close as possible to June.

Ezeoul · 31-12-2023 5:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121554199#Comment_121554199

I don't know about that, but when they do finally get around to talking about pay, I fully expect the talks to fail, and put on the backburner again for another while as happened in June 2022. It took them until the end of August to come back to the table that time. DPER is in no rush.

If we see a cent before June 2024, I'll be surprised.

Peter Flynt · 31-12-2023 5:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121554548#Comment_121554548

What action from the unions do you expect given such a scenario?

bren2001 · 31-12-2023 6:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121553884#Comment_121553884

Work to rule only makes sense if a specific sector/company is going on strike e.g. teachers or Ford.

I literally have no idea how my job would change if work to rule came in. The duties are not outlined in my contract, it's very broad. I would need my union rep to sit down and go through what I can and can't do i.e. Id never end up sticking to work to rule.

I don't think it makes sense now. The deal expires at midnight tonight. Immediate industrial action seems rash.

salonfire · 31-12-2023 6:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121543265#Comment_121543265

You are teacher and as I have repeatedly told you in this thread, teachers spend the majority of their career the within the top 20% of all income earners. That means 80% of people are paid less than teachers and that's with more than half of adults today having 3rd level education. How is that an inch past the bare minimum?

Why don't you ever substantiate your claims with data?

naughto · 31-12-2023 6:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121554714#Comment_121554714

I no its Christmas/New Yr but has there being any comment from the unions if it's just to say the deadline has now passed or will have to night and they are very disappointed that they have heard nothing from government,if this is they way the government want to start off the new yr with such uncertainty then so be it.

Some one mentioned above that they will drag the sh1te out of this and use it when it suits them to take the heat of them that is exactly what they will do.

The long awaited cardiology report is published in the next day or so that will cause few heated exchanges.

bren2001 · 31-12-2023 7:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121554839#Comment_121554839

They said they will meet on the 11th to discuss it and decide a path forward. That was before Christmas.

Peter Flynt · 31-12-2023 7:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121554802#Comment_121554802

And you can never answer the questions: Why are teachers emigrating? Why are there teacher shortages?

salonfire · 31-12-2023 8:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121554951#Comment_121554951

The reasons they are emigrating is not about pay. If it were about pay, the 80% of adults getting paid less than teachers would be emigrating as well.

Those that emigrated often return.

Since teachers can expect to be among the top income earners in the country, that rules out pay as the reason for shortages.

https://www.thejournal.ie/irish-nurses-midwives-emigration-figures-6216732-Nov2023/

ALMOST 60% of Irish nursing and midwifery graduates from the class of 2011 who emigrated over the last 10 years have since returned, new data from the Central Statistics Office (CSO) indicates.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-pme/populationandmigrationestimatesapril2023/keyfindings/

Of those immigrants, 29,600 were returning Irish citizens

Public Pay Talks - see mod warning post 4293

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