Public Pay Talks - see mod warning post 4293

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121635891#Comment_121635891

They're the ones who want to negotiate their terms and conditions individually. They can absolutely join a union, just not a public sector only union.

The decisions about terminating a contract are going to be made by the same people who make the decisions to tell them not to come in.

SouthWesterly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121634985#Comment_121634985

I suppose all the TDs need to be on strike as well being public servants!

Gusser09

All this talk of picket crossing.

I remember being on a cpsu picket. We were the lowest paid workers in the civil service.

Everyone passed the picket. Everyone.

SouthWesterly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121635782#Comment_121635782

It's also a person's legal right to not join one.

Why do it think you can bully people for exercising their legal rights.

As it happens with my office about 50% are non union.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121636084#Comment_121636084

Where did you get bullying from?

Norrie Rugger Head

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121635904#Comment_121635904

They are not permanent employees, they are not employees, they are private businesses engaged in specific term contracts

No union will back them. Have you ever been a contractor?

lbunnae

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121636110#Comment_121636110

I don’t think they get the concept.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121636110#Comment_121636110

That's their choice, right? To be self employed with all the tax benefits that go with it?

And then they come crying to the unions to help them out?

SouthWesterly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121636104#Comment_121636104

We're obviously reading different threads on the pay talks 😁

Norrie Rugger Head

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121636124#Comment_121636124

No, the don't come crying, ever. They can and should protect their employment because no permanent employees will give a crap when their contract is not renewed and no union can ever counter non renewal

Them joining the union is as useless as when you see unemployed people being asked to join SIPTU.

You talk about people needing to protect each other but immediately want to sacrifice the most unsecure people you work with?

Stop

Ezeoul

Equally, the contractors don't give a crap about what the civil servants are being paid.

The nature of being a contractor, means it's not permanent employment, and they are well compensated for this. The contractors I deal with on a daily basis are being paid multiples per day of any of the civil servants they are working with, so I'm not exactly sympathetic.

They absolutely would not be terminated for not crossing a picket, and if submitting a tender for a new contract, it would not come into consideration. There are very strict (and transparent) procedures involved in assessing tenders and awarding contracts.

So while they are perfectly entitled to protect their own employment, it doesn't make it morally right to cross a picket when it involves workers who are taking action to improve their working conditions.

So, if they cross the picket, so be it. But if that results in some cooler office relationships later on, well, they also have to accept that.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121636176#Comment_121636176

In assessing 'most insecure', you seem to have left out the financial security bit. These folks are taking out 2x or 3x the wages of the civil servants working beside them. They've deliberately chosen the self-employed/contractor route, usually for the tax benefits available to them. They're also working currently in a sellers market, where if they are half-decent, they will be in huge demand.

So tell me please, who exactly is going to decide to terminate or not renew their contract?

Norrie Rugger Head

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121636325#Comment_121636325

Some earn that much many don't. Most IT contractors people interact with don't.

Your typical IT service desk contractor is on a temporary contract with, say, PFH. They're earnining 25 to 35k on a rolling 6 month contract.

If they refuse to go in PFH will fire them or not renew at the end of 6 months, whichever is easier for the company.

Will you give a crap if that person loses their low paid job because they refused to go in? Would you even know?

The guys on bigger money? What company is going to use them in a PS tender, if they've had a contract cancelled by a PS organisation?

Stop thinking that people who are NOT public sector employees, involved in a dispute, must stay away.

Should cleaners, who are contracted in, not clean hospitals or should they risk their near minimum wage jobs?

L1011

Extremely bluntly, if someone is on a service desk contract for 25k in this economy, they're an idiot.

You'll get closer to 30 and be staff anywhere - absolutely bloody anywhere - at this stage.

Nobody should be working as a contractor on a service desk unless they're being paid 1.5x+ what you'll get as staff somewhere else. Nobody should be working as a contractor anywhere unless they're on 1.5x+ what staff get actually; you are foregoing so much in rights and protection.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121636423#Comment_121636423

PFH will do exactly what the staff manager tells them. What staff manager (who apparently had authority to tell the contractor not to come in) is going to tell PFH to terminate the contract of a trained, effective contractor?

Norrie Rugger Head

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121636467#Comment_121636467

If they get told that a contractor is to come in the contractor has to come in.

You're the one saying that they have a choice to not come in.

You've never been a contractor, have you?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121636483#Comment_121636483

And if he respects the picket, who's going to decide to fire him?

lbunnae

There is not going to be a strike. The government need to ever so slightly strengthen their offer and that’s it done. There is an absolutely shag all appetite for a strike.

Norrie Rugger Head

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121636489#Comment_121636489

The company can easily rewuest a different one. I've literally seen it happen for one who the internal HSE manager just didn't like.

Replaced the next day.

You're, literally, talking about an area of employment you have no idea about.

Every low level contractor is immediately expendable, mids are easy enough to replace with time (let their term end and not renew), very very few "consultants" are critical

Norrie Rugger Head

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121636511#Comment_121636511

I'm actually looking north and wishing we had that level of courage

lbunnae

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121636520#Comment_121636520

I earn a lot more than my northern counterpart. Nothing to do with courage.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121636515#Comment_121636515

I didn't ask what they CAN do. I asked you what staff manager, who was apparently quite happy to give the contractor a day off, is then going to have the same guy fired?

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121636515#Comment_121636515

It seems to me like you're talking about employees of private companies who hold public contracts.

If they are directed to cross a picket (or refuse to cross a picket), that is a matter between them and their employer - the company who pays them.

It is not a matter for the Dept or Public Service body that is paying their company.

Norrie Rugger Head

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121636539#Comment_121636539

Whi was giving them the day off? What are you talking about?

Gusser09

Contractors passing a picket is no worse than the pseu passing the cpsu picket. That was shocking.

Norrie Rugger Head

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121636558#Comment_121636558

It is when, should they not come in, they can be told not to return to that position. Contracting company will send someone else.

Most of those lads are on rolling temp contracts and can be fired for not going in. They have not served strike notice or engaged in any IA.

To flip your comment around, our strike has nothing to do with contractors of any description, be they cleaners/IT/kitchen

Norrie Rugger Head

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121636580#Comment_121636580

So you're happy for people to be let go, for our picket?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121636568#Comment_121636568

You said that you were giving them a day off so they wouldn't have to come in.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121636586#Comment_121636586

It literally is not.

It is a matter between them and their employer.

Norrie Rugger Head

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121636634#Comment_121636634

So our strike is not their problem. We shouldn't be asking them to risk their employment, and they would be.

If they don't come in, as requested by the client, the client can request a new person.