Public Pay Talks - see mod warning post 4293

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122200712#Comment_122200712

That reflects your view on it alright. You've made that clear.

Others, like myself, have a different opinion.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122192522#Comment_122192522

Imagine someone on €200 a week got a 10% increase, and someone on €52000/year got a 5% increase. BY that article, the first person is doing twice as well as the second person. In reality, the first person went from €200 to €220 and the second went from €1000 to €1050, a 2.5 fold increase comparing just the increases against each other. Even including tax, the increase is still bigger for the second (a little over €30 in my head), so a 1.5 fold bigger increase.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122200987#Comment_122200987

Thats why comparing those on the minimum to an entire sector is a pointless comparison.

I can switch from kerrygold to aldi butter. Someone on social welfare likely doesn't have that option. The cost of living is nonlinear and that has to be taken into account by the government when setting welfare rates.

Yeah Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122200930#Comment_122200930

This thread is full of cranks with very unrealistic expectations, I wouldn't worry about it too much. They'll try their hardest to convince you that you're complicit by not demanding a double digit percentage increase every 18 months.

Ezeoul

I'll just leave this here.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/people-on-welfare-see-incomes-increase-by-higher-rate-than-those-in-employment-oireachtas-study-shows/a389737558.html

People who are not in the workforce are seeing their real incomes increase by more than employees are, according to an analysis by the Parliamentary Budget Office (PBO) of the Oireachtas.

The increase for those in employment is 1.8pc for 2023/24, with public servants faring the worst, because their real incomes will grow by just 0.5pc in the period to the end of this year.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122200987#Comment_122200987

Don't forget to add in all those double weeks and very generous extra bonus' given to welfare recipients around Christmas time. It all adds up. Also factor in the costs of work for the employee.

Look, the deal is done and it won't be undone. But it was said by some of us all along that CS/PS were being shafted.

The bottom line is the Government place more value on welfare than work.

Yeah Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122201077#Comment_122201077

Already posted and addressed. Like, three posts before yours.

Sensationalist twaddle.

combat14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122200987#Comment_122200987

imagine consistently getting increases decade after decade sitting on your butt not even looking for a job that's what goes on in this country - people having 40 years on the dole parties down the pub its a complete joke lol

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122201150#Comment_122201150

Well, it's worth repeating.

Maybe it'll finally sink in with some for next time, that their employer places more importance on welfare, than workers.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122201147#Comment_122201147

The bottom line is the Government place more value on welfare than work

What sensational bullshit.

Ireland is at "full employment".

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122201171#Comment_122201171

Should welfare rates be fixed and not adjust with inflation or other economic conditions? There's a number of people scamming the system, the number is so small, it doesn't matter. The majority of people on the dole are on it because they need it.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122201031#Comment_122201031

If misrepresentation and name calling is all you have, you don't have an argument.

We voted last time for a pay deal which left us much worse off, we've now voted for one which does next to nothing to reverse that, and this is at a time when the economy is doing well!

SouthWesterly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122200987#Comment_122200987

What's not accounted for is emergency payments for everything you can imagine. Double payments over Christmas which was about 1000. Fuel allowance and then getting a cheque for heating oil or an esb bill. Rent allowance,

All things the average employees doesn't get.

Yeah Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122201644#Comment_122201644

I'm not misrepresenting anything. You wanted a 10%+ increase in both of the last two deals, correct?

You, and your POV, are completely at odds with the vast, vast majority of people and your expectations are completely unrealistic. You can bitch and moan all you like, it makes you look like a crank.

HGVRHKYY

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122201316#Comment_122201316

What is the amount of people scamming the system? There are >140,000 on jobseekers at the moment, during very low levels of unemployment, which works out at around €1.6bn per year, which would be enough to fund >4,000 homes if they were constructed for <€400,000 each.

The system needs to be changed so that anyone working any job is financially better off than anyone on jobseekers. Even someone working part-time should be taking home more than someone unemployed, and it shouldn't be the case that these people lose supports that would potentially make remaining on jobseekers a more beneficial option.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122201687#Comment_122201687

Very true but with exceptions, I think I am still doing better off being employed in a reasonably paid job. I could be wrong but fiscally, for the life I enjoy, I can't buy that somehow I would be better off on the dole as the paper is implying by misrepresenting data.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122201935#Comment_122201935

I couldn’t disagree with this more.

Jobseekers isn’t a punishment. I’d rather treat people on welfare like human beings than wild animals living off scraps.

HGVRHKYY

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122202209#Comment_122202209

What about my post suggests that people on jobseekers should be treated like wild animals living off scraps? You disagree that people who are working and provide for themselves should come out better than people who choose to remain living off jobseekers?

Jobseekers isn't and shouldn't be a punishment, it should be a support in place for people who need it when they lose their jobs. It shouldn't be a permanent alternative option to working, however.

SouthWesterly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122202155#Comment_122202155

Ive met unemployed people with the same family dynamic who have more money from various social welfare payments then I get as a civil servant.

If it was the exception I'd say grand, sadly the exception is the rule

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122202300#Comment_122202300

anyone working any job is financially better off than anyone on jobseekers. Even someone working part-time should be taking home more than someone unemployed

Its a safety net. What you describe is horrible system I wouldn't subject on anyone. I think its a disgusting attitude to have.

It shouldn't be a permanent alternative option to working

Its not and the number of people who cheat the system is a statistically irrelevant number. How many billions is our surplus? Yet we should make the lives of everyone on jobseekers more miserable than it currently is to save a few million.

HGVRHKYY

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122202453#Comment_122202453

This is my original statement:

The system needs to be changed so that anyone working any job is financially better off than anyone on jobseekers.

How have I described a "horrible system"? How is this a disgusting attitude to have? I didn't even describe any specific system, I just said that individuals who are working should be better off than anyone living off jobseekers. Would you not agree that someone who actually goes out and works for their money deserves to be better off financially than someone who chooses to try and live off of jobseekers (a supposedly temporary support)?

I fully support the upcoming change that'll enable people to get a large percentage of their most recent salary upon losing their jobs. This is in line with other European countries' job seekers support systems. What isn't in line is the fact that ours is essentially permanent for certain people.

Its not and the number of people who cheat the system is a statistically irrelevant number

Can you show this statistically irrelevant number - what exactly is it?

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122203022#Comment_122203022

The system needs to be changed so that anyone working any job is financially better off than anyone on jobseekers

I think that describes a horrible system. One, when someone loses their job, automatically goes to the very very very bottom. It’s a temporary measure to assist people and should actually help people get through the period. It’s welfare which is effectively a type of insurance.

”Can you show this statistically irrelevant number ”

Pointless. No matter what figures are produced you’ll dispute them. CSO holds the stats and you’re just as capable as producing a stat which shows it is statistically relevant, you’re the one who wants to rip up the system, no me.

HGVRHKYY

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122203050#Comment_122203050

The system is being changed so that people receive jobseekers according to their previous earnings, something I support. I just simply believe that the baseline shouldn't enable someone to work out financially better off than anyone who is in employment - this is very basic and not outrageous stuff.

Pointless. No matter what figures are produced you’ll dispute them. CSO holds the stats and you’re just as capable as producing a stat which shows it is statistically relevant, you’re the one who wants to rip up the system, no me.

You've declared that segment of the jobseekers receivers as statistically irrelevant, so point me to exactly where you see the breakdown of the genuine vs fraudulent jobseekers receivers on the CSO. Surely you're not declaring things like this without actually having seen the data, so it should be easy to locate for you.

Viscount Aggro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122201171#Comment_122201171

These people are about to get the shock of their life.

Dept of Social Prosecution is going to engage with the long term unemployed,

will be assigned a case worker, progression / activation programmes will be assigned.

Either retrain, take a job, or get cut off from benefits.

bren2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122203084#Comment_122203084

The system is being changed so that people receive jobseekers according to their previous earnings, something I support

In this system, plenty of people will receive more than a part time worker. This goes against exactly what you stated earlier.

I’ve no objection to a tiered system. Makes sense.

There was under 8000 cases of fraud last year. Watch how you’ll start disputing the number. It’s pointless to discuss it further.

Sultan of Bling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122203118#Comment_122203118

Qué letters from doctors to say they have a "disability"

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122201171#Comment_122201171

Jayus at the start I taught you were talking about public servants

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122201935#Comment_122201935

The 140k on jobseekers is probably the base. It was 100k 10+ years ago. Effectively its full employment.

When a person reached 65 previously they drew a pre retirement pension. The government changed the rules so not at 65 you can spend a year drawing your stamps. A significant number now do this. Woukdbit be 40k.

Next you have those signing on for credits. Technically they are available for work but most are not actively looking. They already have the 520 minimum stamps and the credits will activate the rest of there years. Old public servants who paid a D stamp maje up the majority of these.

You then have the people between jobs, my own son is job hunting at present he wasvtravelling for 12 months and is drawing jobseekers benefit at present.

There are part time workers who only work 2-3 days a week that recieve part time benefit.

Then you have the habitual longterm unemployed. I can understand why employers are reluctant to employ them. They are not as many as you think

Icbaby

there is a cohort of people in this country that will never work. I grew up surrounded by this mentality. I don’t begrudge anyone social welfare or anything but I do despise the people who will only ever live like this because they can.
again €200+ isn’t going to get them far when you think about it and I say give them all €450 a week to be honest because do you know what I hate most… the supports to the payments. Give everyone a living wage and take their rent allowance, medical cards, back to school allowance etc away. If you or I can work and live on €450 a week without the supports, then up the social welfare and take away the supports because the social welfare payments are not ridiculous if you raise it by €200 a week, imagine what the government would save not paying x amount in rent or allowances etc. if a working person has to do it why not everyone and then if you need supports you see a welfare officer as it’s not automatic and people on lower wages could avail too. I see more struggling workers than people on social welfare.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122201693#Comment_122201693

They'll try their hardest to convince you that you're complicit by not demanding a double digit percentage increase every 18 months.

That is direct misrepresentation.

You, and your POV, are completely at odds with the vast, vast majority of people

That's unfortunate but it's something I have to accept. Argumentum ad populum is not an argument, the majority is not right just because they're the majority.

and your expectations are completely unrealistic.

It is absolutely not unrealistic to expect that successive pay deals will not make us poorer. Where is that going to leave us in ten or 20 or more years..?

You can bitch and moan all you like, it makes you look like a crank.

Like I said, all you have provided is misrepresentation and name calling.