Public Pay Talks - see mod warning post 4293

crinkley · 13-07-2022 4:06pm

Are you telling me that no working or middle class private sector earners live in london?

fliball123 · 13-07-2022 4:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119332136#Comment_119332136

That as a citizen is your right to use or not to use the facilities in Leitrim, but there will be substantial amount of tax payers using those facilities, in the situation being outlined the only person living in the house ie the gard, nurse or teacher are the only ones benefiting and the people paying are running the same race and jumping the same hurdles with regards to affordability. So are we allowed compare private and public or is it only when its suits the narrative from the public sector side? Can you show me one company hiring someone with a subsidy for living in Dublin that has our countries debt and deficit or will I be told you cant compare, yet it seems some can when they want?

fliball123 · 13-07-2022 4:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119332241#Comment_119332241

Feel free to move to London then

crinkley · 13-07-2022 4:15pm

I don’t need to move to London, I don’t live in dublin but I have some basic understanding to realise that a government needs to provide basic needs such as education and health care and if their employees can’t afford to live near their work the greater public suffer.

but sure as long as you are alright in your city/town/village than heaven forbid taxes don’t directly benefit you

fliball123 · 13-07-2022 4:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119332290#Comment_119332290

We already pay our ps a premium above that of those who work in the private sector when the average across both sectors are looked at they also have a pension, annual increments and job security I think that is more than enough of a subsidy, if we are looking at England can we bring our public sector pay down and have the same gap between the 2 sectors with regards to wages??

Do you have any understanding that the whole of the working population feel the same that they should be able to live near to where they work and teachers in particular a lot of whom are turning their noses up at correcting work over the summer want to be subsidized.. Thanks but no thanks. What about people who work in areas like research for new drugs for cancer its very rare for the public sector to be involved here and its usually private sector who find these should they also get a living in Dublin allowance as you know its so important for the greater good. Where do we draw the line. What about the coffee shop worker who if they cant work then the teacher cant get their morning coffee meaning a knock on effect to their performance and the kids suffer where is the line.. its crazy stuff. If you or any other worker wants to live in Dublin pay for it yourself

crinkley · 13-07-2022 4:32pm

If I was you I’d look at the pay of someone who works in IT in the private and public sector before making such silly comments.

crinkley · 13-07-2022 4:36pm

I should also add I work as hard as my partner for my increments as she does her bonuses. I pay more into my pension than she does. Go update your public vs private sector cliches

fliball123 · 13-07-2022 4:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119332384#Comment_119332384

and what about the coffee shop worker, yeah pick and choose what you want. The fact is and this is going to be hard for some in here to listen to but we have a housing crisis, our health care system is not fit for purpose even do its possibly per head the most expensive in the world to run, our infrastructure is not where it should be and you guys think we should give the Dublin based ps a rise while borrowing the money to do so and heading into a recession and increasing interest rates? As I keep saying we are all running the same race and jumping the same hurdles and just because one vested interest has access to the media via unions does not make their need greater. Don't be surprised if the pay rises talked about dissipate as there are other areas in greater need and when the private sector gets decimated by job loses and your talking about 18 to 24 months time and corporation taxes head out the door the IMF will be in here again. Anyone doubting the validity of the soon to come recession should look at markets, our debts, our currency value and the fact that the magic money printer will not be turned on again as it does not suit the likes of Germany and France, our interest rates and which way they can only go (up), affordability (of everything not just housing), our dependence on corpo tax and the lack of investment into infrastructure over the last decade and a half (housing, schools, roads, broadband, etc), also just look at some of the threads on here its nearly a self fulfilling prophecy at this stage.

crinkley · 13-07-2022 4:45pm

Well by your logic the coffee shop worker should just move out of dublin their choice to live here.

im not picking and choosing just showing the huge holes in your argument

fliball123 · 13-07-2022 4:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119332465#Comment_119332465

Yet this is what is happening or the coffee shop worker is deciding to sit on the dole as it may be financially better for them and its being reported already on some tabloids but private sector co.s do not have the same soapbox as teachers , they cannot fill the jobs being advertised so should we offer shop workers and retail staff a subsidy to live in Dublin? It is actually a problem country wide but acutely its felt more in Dublin as the costs involved. Its not just public sector jobs that are going unfilled.

https://www.independent.ie/business/jobs/employers-set-for-record-hiring-spree-but-79pc-cant-find-staff-41665620.html

https://www.businesspost.ie/news-focus/when-you-cant-get-the-staff-the-retail-sectors-worker-problem/

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/businesses-warn-most-industries-now-suffering-damaging-staff-shortages-1.4809313

crinkley · 13-07-2022 4:57pm

well then join the public sector. But don’t sit and moan when others see a problem and a solution and organise to make their conditions better.

if you really want a race to the bottom than move to dublin so you can be a proper martyr

fliball123 · 13-07-2022 5:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119332514#Comment_119332514

So the solution is to pick one sector in one county even do the issue exists in both sectors and in other counties beside Dublin. raise taxes for everyone else to cover the additional expense even do we have all of the other issues I outlined. Its not a race to the bottom, its those who already have a really good wages, terms and conditions looking for more and being given an unchallenged platform to spin and unfortunately it cannot be afforded and there are other areas in dire need that need attention straight away and should be prioritized if the money was there.

Typical response when the facts are put up and you have no real response.

crinkley · 13-07-2022 5:26pm

Who said anything about raising taxes there are other methods. You’d have to show far better comprehension skills in order to achieve your increment in my team.

other countries have done it to retain talent in high cost areas. London being a prime example which hasn’t led to what you believed would happen.

people in the private sector are free to negotiate their salaries with their employers you don’t see me stoping them or wanting to put up corporation tax because I might be as stupid as to think this was some sort of subsidy

if you are unable to negotiate a better salary than either your employer doesn’t value you or your skills and output don’t warrant it. I suggest you work on this instead of spending your time on boards or at least try and present better facts

fliball123 · 13-07-2022 7:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119332670#Comment_119332670

Have you been living in a different country? Ask yourself how much did we borrow last year. How much are we in debt. The latest figures are we will have a 0.5% surplus for the first time this year and IMO this is very optimistic our growth figures are way too optimistic but that is an argument for another day. so that .5% you think we should just hand out to the ps in Dublin so just leave the homeless/housing crisis and the cost of living crisis continue (these 2 areas need 10s of billions thrown at it)? What about the cost of living for every other mere mortal in the country we just tell them its ok the inflation is temporary but only for you guys in the private sector, the superiour beingsin the public sector and government are looking for increases in wages in line with inflation (even do its supposedly temporary). AS for facts you have not been able to prove me wrong as the facts are right.

So do enlighten me about your plan and how you get the money for giving more to the public sector employees wanting to live and work in Dublin and do so under the current paradigm the country sees itself in and this is of

Housing/homeless crisis needs money

Infrastructure needs money

Cost of living crisis needs money

Income tax in the country already at the point of diminishing returns due to the high rates of income tax kicking in at such a low rate meaning we are possibly the most progressive countries when it comes to taxing income in the world.

Corpo tax?? would anyone have the cahonas to go after that and risk losing that cash cow that the current agreed pay rises in the ps is based on.

Do you think any of our partys all of which have headed to the left with regards to sentiment will cut welfare?

Can we borrow it on top of 250Billion debt with the interest rates expected to start rising from this month from the ECB meaning going forward both our current and new debt will cost us more as a % of our yearly spend.

Then of course there is the fact that we are going into a recession this hasn't hit yet and our politicians and those in Europe are burying their head in the sand and its going to be as bad if not worse than 08

Go on smart a$$ show me your amazing plan with the above obstacles?

Other countries show private sector pay on average well above their public sector counter parts pay unlike Ireland where the public sector is paid a premium so do you want to compare other countries in total or is it just narratives that suit your argument?

You still don't get it a lot of private sector companies went on life support during covid and there has been a bounce after people were allowed out after lock down with record savings on tap to support some growth in the economy. Once this boon is gone and our high cost within the country will have its citizens on its knees, we are still no where near the end of the oil/gas/electricity price hikes this winter is going to be an absolute sh1tshow and it will be interesting to get a snapshot of tourists for this year and next as it will be well down things like 46k to rent a car for 9days, how much have hotel rooms gone up by and of course the other jobs that support tourism will be hit. Your problem is you see all the private sector as making profits and giving pay rises when nothing can be further from the truth the vast majority have not gotten pay rises. Some have due to their company posting profits so this in your eyes means all private sector employees are raking it in when they are not. The companies they work for in a lot of situations cannot afford to pay pay rises on top of the cost of living that are ongoing currently yet the govenment can continue paying the ps wages as the kicking of the debt can down the road will continue or at least tried the problem is interest rates if they go as hight as 5/6/7/8% which the US are looking at currently what are the repayments on 250Billion at 5% = 12.5Billion alone to service our debts thats a very high % of our spend, but hey dont let that fact get in the way of your blinkered view on things. The head on you your not valued if your not getting a pay rise only someone who is either working in or with someone working in such a cushioned position within a protected structure like the public sector could make such a statement and think they are taking the high road. Come back to this post next July and we will see where we are and if I was right.

crinkley · 13-07-2022 7:34pm

So as well as your comprehension being poor also you lack the ability to see the bigger picture.

spend the next hour going back through my posts and find where I have called for a tax rise that should waste enough of your time that someone else doesn’t have to read through one of your very poorly thought out essay

after you’ve finished wasting your time I would recommend you put your time to some sensible use and pick a basic economics book. There will be plenty in there on the importance of cities for economies and how they should be sufficiently serviced. Some will even provide ways to achieve this that go beyond your basic YoU mUSt Be cAlLinG FoR tAx RisES WE canT affOrD when anyone even hints at spending

fliball123 · 13-07-2022 7:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119333243#Comment_119333243

So what shape or form is the tax rise going to take so that the elite sector can live in Dublin? Once again your response is poor no outline just tax more and a bit of a slagging go on do enlighten me oh wise one

caviardreams · 13-07-2022 7:59pm

Private sector accountants in Leitrim probably earn less than those working in the IFSC etc. makes total sense to have a 5-10% Dublin allowance or similar (10% at lower scales and 5% at top scales or whatever). It happens in teh private sector just not explicitly

crinkley · 13-07-2022 8:03pm

You don’t have to rise taxes you simply adjust spending. You have followed the news also and seen the tax return figures. Also what tax rises have you seen for increase in defence?

I also would forgo a pay rise and wouldn’t begrudge the introduction of a weighting system, which I personally wouldn’t benefit from directly, because I understand the economics behind cities and what they provide in tax revenue. Something you can’t have without providing the necessary services

fliball123 · 13-07-2022 8:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119333364#Comment_119333364

Not in all areas of the private sector it doesnt in fact its not that common for example does the like of Dunnes or Aldi pay more in Dublin?? Also a lot of companies such as IT and other related industries are now allowing working from home and home in a lot of case aint Dublin

fliball123 · 13-07-2022 8:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119333384#Comment_119333384

Yet your also ignoring the 2 crisis that are happening currently that need 10s of Billions so just leave the continuation of fingers in the ears and head in the sand on those 2, hows about we cut the non-Dublin Public sector workers wages to pay for the weighting

crinkley · 13-07-2022 8:16pm

No Im not ignoring anything I just have a better grasp of how tax generation works obviously and don’t apply linear thinking to it

fliball123 · 13-07-2022 8:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119333439#Comment_119333439

I never mentioned anything about tax generation in my last post I was talking about what areas of spend that would be competing for the limited amount of cash we may have at our disposal and if you think giving more to the public sector (the non-tax creating sector in society) and your thinking its good for taxation then your grasp on tax generation is very tenuous when it comes to this topic even without linear thinking. Case in point our HSE. The 2 words that comes to the majority of people minds when hearing those 3 letters is Money Pit.

crinkley · 13-07-2022 8:34pm

A well serviced city such as Dublin generates tax. Am I willing to look at ways that a city with costs such as Dublin can achieve this yes. And once again I would like you to find the post where I said giving more. I said adjusting spend, many fail to grasp that the public sector also generates

fliball123 · 13-07-2022 8:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119333515#Comment_119333515

Ok so no tax increases what are you cutting so in order to facilitate the pay rise ? and then an explanation if cuts can be made why our housing/homeless crisis (one of the biggest barriers to importing labour currently as there is no housing to rent or very little) is not prioritized or that of the current high cost of living crisis should not be deemed more important?

crinkley · 13-07-2022 8:40pm

Oh there’s loads id love to cut but no politician would dare.

instead use a small portion of the additional tax receipts generated this year

fliball123 · 13-07-2022 8:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119333539#Comment_119333539

The 0.5 is a projection which I believe will not be met, already growth figures have been cut and honestly if you cant feel the winds changing around you as I can, you definitely will come winter time.

Go on I am genuinely interested in what you would cut and I agree some politicians have no spine and I will say this I would rather see my taxes housing workers where they want to live as apposed to the prioritization of those on welfare getting to live beside mumsy