Public Pay Talks - see mod warning post 4293

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119390802#Comment_119390802

Ah the auld reliable argument when facts are laid bare, well ball back over to your side of the court if the private sector are killing it why don't you join them Dunnes are hiring? Figures are there 20% pay differential between the 2 sectors.

SortingYouOut

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119390814#Comment_119390814

I work in Tesco.

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119390807#Comment_119390807

Clueless 20% pay differential between both sectors, paid over 10% more already from Jan 2014 to Dec 2022 in pay rises per person working in the public sector vs inflation rate rise. Now the unions are looking and picking certain sectors in the private sector getting 10% pay rises and they want the same and ignoring the 1.2 million employees in the private sector not getting a pay rise at all.

Facts are there nothing I can do if the government dont want to hear it and sure why wouldn't they when their own wage goes up with the outcome anyways. Turkeys dont vote for xmas.

Jesus **** Christ.

The pay bill was 10% higher (when you use your personal, bespoke calculation methods).

That doesn't mean everyone is on 10% more than they were previously.

How many more times do you have to have this explained to you?

@fliball123

Where do you work @fliball123?

Alonzo Mosley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119390880#Comment_119390880

There's no way in hell will he answer that .......

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119390876#Comment_119390876

Yet thats what its costing the tax payers to pay, some are on more than 10% some are on less than 10% now than they were in 2014 on average its 10%, yet public sector mouth pieces on here looking for blanket 10% pay rises for the good, bad and ugly in the public sector to match Dunnes and Tescos, yet 1.2 million people in the private sector think they will not be getting a raise in 2022, can you see that.

Doughnutholer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119390977#Comment_119390977

Why don't you do your "stats" from pre-2014? Interesting that you look at the low point after a series of austerity measures. Extremely disingenuous. Also, pay bill does not equate directly to salary. Furthermore, direct comparisons from public to private are not apples to apples and you know it. Pure nonsense.

am_zarathustra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119390245#Comment_119390245

So I'm going to take 2012, the most recent stats on the graph, mass redundancies and instability along with emigration ect during the height of the recession would make it unreliable data. Golden handshakes/early retirement were also offered to the highest earners, early retirement was/is an option for them whereas it wouldn't have been for lower paid workers.

I'm also going to ingnore pensions, these are primarily old pensions and almost no one currently working will be on them, or D prsi ect They have nothing to do with the current discussion and skew the data upwards.

So from the graph (caveat, the numbers will be a little off, the graphs from the article aren't in great resolution)

2012

14,500,000,000bn in pay

290,000 employed

Average 50,000

2021

20,500,000,000

356,000 (from article not graph)

Average 57,584

So an increase of 7584, this gives roughly 15% increase.

So actually breaking this down, why might this be? Obviously there will be a large number of factors so I'll just cherry pick a couple that are not based on everyone and sundry being handed an envelope with 7 grand in it or whatever you think is happening.

In education and health, with over 100000 employees each, broadly speaking, will be the biggest effectors. Both experienced the pre and post 2012 dual pay scale, this proved a disaster as it lead to the current recruitment and retention crisis so this pay disparity has been slowly eroded. So unless you are a lower paid teacher or nurse and your pay is subject to pay restorationyou have received the 4.75% from the PSSA and nothing else, actually running a bit below actual inflation. Some will have received pay restoration.

Both these parts of the public service also require a decent level of education in general, teachers having up to a masters mandatorily now and nurses having been through excellent training.

Edit : point here was restoration was required to keep nurses and teachers in the country, still didn't work!

Also interesting quirks of the pay in 2020 and 21, both withstanding the absolutely glaring obvious one of overtime in the guards and medical fields was the backpay the government owed to consultants due to the case they lost, individuals got up to 500,000 in one lump sum of back pay. This nicely skews the last couple of years "average" pay. So assuming 2019 was the last year that doesn't include overpay, and random payouts from court cases .....

340,000 public service employees

17,000,000,000bn

So average in 2019 was 51,515

A very modest 1515 increase, running nicely below inflation at about 3%.....now in fairness there was a pay increase of 2% in 2020 under the PSSA so let's say 5% again then......not 17% or whatever you were claiming! All the pay agreements are publically available by the way, so the gross numbers and the agreements all even out at roughly 5%ish

Stats are cool, they can kinda show anything if you cherry pick.........

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119390994#Comment_119390994

I did , I did stats from 08 as well earlier this morning. But the reason I went to 2014 is that is that 2014 is the year that is generally accepted by most that we came out of the crash fully. Our expenditure was not affordable up until this point as pointed out to us by out side auditors - The IMF and the austerity measures placed on the country

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119390943#Comment_119390943

I work in IT in a small company, last pay rise 2018 told not a snowballs chance in hell of a pay rise this year due to the recession coming and the costs that are hitting us as a country as they are not just costs for individuals, companies are feeling these costs too.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119390977#Comment_119390977

So, in summary, we aren't all on 15% more than we were in 2014, despite you saying that multiple times, correct?

Alonzo Mosley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119391036#Comment_119391036

Fair play to you .... this gives other posters an idea of where you are coming from.

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119391046#Comment_119391046

Depends on what month in 2021 I have told you three times now the article said 2.1% and it is from Feb of 2021 using your own link below it bears out that. You choose December of that year and it was out to 7.3%, but then on the math I did you have to add on the 1% pay rise included in 2021 as December is the end of the year and Feb the start

So in feb 2021 it was 17.3% in December it was about 10/11% (depending on the cost of pay increments for the year)

https://visual.cso.ie/?body=entity/cpicalculator

Bobby2004

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119390797#Comment_119390797

I tend not to comment to often on boards and i'm not going to get into the nitty gritty of this whole thread. I've worked in the private sector for many years and currently in the public sector. I'm just a little curious as to what you think workers in public sector should be on since you seem very against incremental pay. Is it just one entry level salary base whether you're experienced or not. Give everyone the same not taking into account knowledge or experience. I've worked with plenty of retailers in the past. You came in at the lowest rate of pay and the money went up on an increment basis every year until you reached the top of the relevant position. Bonuses were also annual.

combat14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119391036#Comment_119391036

you obviously need to change work places .. IT salaries up 9% year on year alone in latest stats .. of course you are complaining about other sectors e.g. public sector when you haven't adequately negotiated a pay rise for yourself in 4 or 5 years .. time to put the squeeze on your employer or move on to bigger and better things .. can see where you are coming from now and wish you best of luck

Tonesjones

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119391156#Comment_119391156

I'm in FMCG myself. No rises this year year for anyone. Sales starting to slow everywhere.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119391036#Comment_119391036

Have a look at your annual report from 2014 and 2021.

Do the same calculations on wages and staff numbers, come back to us and tell us how much extra you earn per employee and then compare payslips from the same period, tell us how much you actually earn extra.

Maybe then you'll see how much of a cabbagehead you need to be to use that as the basis for any argument

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119391059#Comment_119391059

Forget it. You're still using this mentally retarded method of calculating wages. I thought you were starting to see the light.

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119391088#Comment_119391088

The increments system rewards good bad and ugly alike and you get paid for time served, I am against the nature of 99% of the employees getting a payrise in a sector that has nearly 400k workers working in it and getting this pay reward no matter how good or bad they are. If they could reward workers who actually work harder than those who dont and by all means pay them more I would have no issue with that at all.

There is already a 20% pay differential between both sectors latest CSO figures in 2022, people point at other countries like England with giving their public sector a subsidy to live in London and this should be the same in Dublin but then dont want to engage in the fact that the public sector in England is paid less on average than their private sector counterparts.

Then they point at some private sector companies getting 10% pay rises like Tesco and ignore the nearly 1.2 million people working in the private sector are stating they will not be getting a payrise.

Then they can ignore the cost of pay per person going up in the public sector for the guts of a decade when inflation was fairly flat (started going north at the tail end of 2021) Now they want pay rises due to the cost of living 9% inflation in the last 12 months (this includes the tail end of 2021) which we do not know if its going to stay that way.

No one is thinking about the near or medium future and the risks that are there such as

What if Russia end the war tomorrow and oil, gas and all the other factors leading into the cost of living crisis come down

What happens if we hit another recession (IMO we are too open an economy not to feel this) America is already reporting that on Thursday they will be sending that message out that they are technically in one

What if some of our top end MNCs pull out of Ireland and the Corporation tax dissipates like it did with stamp duty after the last crash, where do we get the short fall.

We also have no can kicking left we are over 240Billion in debt and interest rates are rising.

We have already hammered the income tax payer with things like USC so at a very low rate we are paying over 51% in tax when USC and PRSI are included. That well is tapped.

With all of the above going on some in the public sector think we can just slap another 10% on their pay no bother , nothing to see hear that's what another 2.3 Billion to be borrowed to start with not to mention the interest or the knock on effect to the already bloated public sector pensions bill .

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/averageweeklyearningsingreatbritain/june2022

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/work/more-than-half-of-employers-plan-pay-rises-in-2022-1.4827350

Summer2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119390880#Comment_119390880

Somewhere that obviously doesn't mind their employees spending all day on boards.ie . You should be getting a pay cut for your productivity levels Fleaball, no wonder your employer told you no hope in hell of an increase in pay.

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119391156#Comment_119391156

Yeah I could get a pay rise if I move job no bother but I am working here in this company for the guts of 17 years , the company have been good to me in bad times during the last recession and when I had kids, things like working from home 3 days a week has helped when the kids where small. So I am remaining loyal to them. But taking one section in a sector like IT does not paint the full picture, as pointed out nearly 1.2 million working in the private sector reckon they will not be getting a pay rise.

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119391215#Comment_119391215

I have always maintained its the average and that can be skewed the bill still has to be paid from taxes that does not change.

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119391208#Comment_119391208

20% more being paid in our public sector than our private sector in 2022 on average both sectors skewed by low wages and high earners, our nearest neighbors the UK the private sector is paid more than there public sector on average and they have much better services than ours NHS, infrastructure the works. At some point what we pay in taxes and what we get in return has to start adding up.

I did the math on that using both Feb and Dec of 2021 I just think you dont like the using of the average.

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119391265#Comment_119391265

yeah attack the post not the poster good man ye sap, ever here of taking a holiday or ye know you boyos in the public sector threat sick days like they are part of your holiday if you don't use them you lose them so lets say I am sick

JeffKenna

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119391360#Comment_119391360

Attack the post not the poster and then you come out with a statement like that.

Jesus wept.

combat14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119391277#Comment_119391277

theres loyalty and theres loyalty.. no pay rise for 10% of a working career .. its almost like you are on some of those many increments in the public sector that attract no increase either .. we feel your pain

SouthWesterly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119390700#Comment_119390700

Wish I was getting 831 never mind 1021 a week.

Who gets that wages so I can lock them in a cupboard and assume their identity?

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119391379#Comment_119391379

Well like I say if the public sector could weed out the clock watchers, the over paid and the wasters I would have no issue with people getting more in the back pocket but the system doesn't seem to work like that there. Its not just loyalty I enjoy what I do, I enjoy the people I work with and for and when an issue like pay comes to the table they are straight with you, they have actually gone out of their way to show us the books there about a month or so ago and how the rest of the year will play out with regards to billable and expenses and how tight the margins are, the guy running it has over the years had to remortgage his house on 2 different occasions to make payment to staff, there is a lot to be said for staying with people who have been good to you its not all about pay rises

SouthWesterly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119390814#Comment_119390814

But you've admitted you can't provide the links to back that statement up. Why keep repeating and unverifiable claim?