Public Pay Talks - see mod warning post 4293

Dodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119711410#Comment_119711410

Or

They want what’s best for everyone and thinks this is the max that can be achieved. It’s weird that you argue that it’s the 90% who are thinking about themselves. They simply wouldn’t be members of the Union if that was the case as they’d get the same result without having any say

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119711419#Comment_119711419

That's not what has been expressed on this thread.

Go back and read it for yourself, but plenty of people were quite open about the fact that they are only thinking about themselves, and felt no obligation to consider anyone else. Like I said, there is no collective spirit.

I'd advise any new recruit to the civil and public service now, to not bother joining the union. Like you say, they'll get the same result, yet save themselves the union dues.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119711236#Comment_119711236

You can't keep everyone happy all of the time.

You seem to be certain that you could do better elsewhere but don't seem to be certain enough to find out. Says a lot.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119711430#Comment_119711430

Your standpoint is not rational nor realistic.

Why should the majority who are rational and realistic go out on strike losing money in the process with no guaranteed outcome, because of people's unrealistic and need I say vague expectations?

You said you wanted a better deal but I don't think you've defined what that looks like.

You talk about social welfare recipients doing 'better' this is patently untrue and factually incorrect and rather worrying that you'd think this when.

When challenged on your own apparent ability to do better elsewhere you come out with some mumbo jumbo about collective bargaining etc.

Take control of your situation if it's making you as bitter as you are appearing to be here. It's not good for your health.

The same has always been the case about union membership not sure what has changed

crinkley

If you voted against this deal you’re certainly not looking out for a CO who you would then expect to strike and lose further pay. A bit disheartened to see a union member punching down then on some of the most vulnerable in society but also sadly reflective of the minority in real life people I encountered against this deal, who could afford to go without a pay increase and generally ignorant of the financial pressures a lot are under

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119711528#Comment_119711528

My situation, after over 30 years of service and multiple promotions, is very comfortable, thank you. So I'm not going anywhere.

Its hilarious you're accusing me of punching down on the more vulnerable in society, when our own colleagues on this thread have been doing nothing but punching down and devaluing the work of junior C&PS staff throughout this thread, but you take no issue with that.

Unlike people like yourself, all through this thread I was thinking more of the people who report to me who I see struggling, and who've told me they're struggling. but that is also there in the thread if you actually had taken the time to understand my position and where I was coming from, instead of just assuming I was merely looking out for my own self-interest. I've made that perfectly clear, and if you think otherwise you're either deliberately misunderstanding me or deliberately misrepresenting me at this stage.

But I guess I come from a different era, when being part of a Union meant something different.

A better deal could have been got. Stop making excuses for the fact that the reason that it wasn't is because there is no will to fight for it, and the Government know this. They showed this when they walked away from the table and let it stew all summer. Anyone who thinks the next round of negotiations next year will go any differently is kidding themselves.

As long as you're prepared to accept the crumbs off the table, that's all you can expect to be offered.

Enjoy it while it lasts. I predict when the back money is spent and January and February kick in, many will be thinking they should have held out for a better deal.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119711540#Comment_119711540

It's a case of short term pain -v- long term gain.

As long as the government know that staff won't back each other, or support a strike, they will continue to act as they please. There is no reason for them to do any more than offer the very bare minimum.

If that is beyond your understanding, well, there is nothing more to be said.

You'd be better off cancelling your union membership and keeping the money you give them in your own pocket.

crinkley

If you think that what has been overwhelmingly accepted by your colleagues is the bare minimum then negotiation and the purpose of unions is beyond your understanding. But keep paying your fees so you don’t lose out on anything whilst trying to claim that you were thinking of your staff and others and not yourself, I’m sure no one in your team believes that either

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119712527#Comment_119712527

You keep telling yourself that if it makes this deal easier to swallow.

Augme

I think everyone understands the purpose of the Union. What there is a massive question mark over is the value of the Union though. Its harder and harder to justify paying the fees for what you get in return.

Gusser09

The unions organise collective bargaining. Without the unions id imagine the govt wouldnt have given a payrise like this as they know the threat of action would be minimal. Im happy enough. Anything less and id have had to think about it. Its a good deal. Imagine trying to get them to match the payrise to inflation. Anyone with the most basic understanding would know that in the long run this would have a negative effect on inflation.

Its a good deal. The best we could have got.

There will always be an element who are pro industrial action. Much the same crowd who walked by the CPSU picket all those years ago.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119712188#Comment_119712188

Read my comments again, I haven't thrown that term in your direction - others may have.

What is this "better deal" you are talking about because you'd want to state your expectations before expecting people to strike.

A 6.5 percent pay deal on top of the few percentage points that were and are being given before the end of 2023, with further negotiations next summer and a larger percentage increase to lower paid workers thorown in isn't a bad deal at all when you see how quickly the jobs market is beginning to tighten elsewhere.

So you are disgusted with your colleagues and the Union for not holding out for more but are happy enough to continue to be part of the system that sees your direct reports "lose out" - fair enough.

AyeGer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119712595#Comment_119712595

The deal was voted for by a very significant majority of members. I think that’s tells its own tale.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119712615#Comment_119712615

For CO's, the worst thing that ever happened was the CPSU joining up with Forsa.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119712650#Comment_119712650

So you are disgusted with your colleagues and the Union for not holding out for more but are happy enough to continue to be part of the system that sees your direct reports "lose out" - fair enough.

Not happy, no. I've stated more than once on this thread that the only reason I am still a union member is because of the Income Continuance Plan which I have been a member of since its inception. As a pre-95 staff member, getting up in years and with no entitlement to social welfare benefits in the event of a long term illness, (I am already disabled) I'll keep paying for that reason.

If it makes you feel better, you can consider it as me taking a leaf out of my colleagues' book, and looking out for my own self-interest, for once. You don't seem to have any issue when anyone else looks out for their own self-interest, but throw it in my face.

SouthWesterly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119711430#Comment_119711430

If you think its ab bad deal do the right thing and refuse the increase and have a chat with pascal and leo.

Let's know how you get on

08122019

Glad to see it being received so positively.

I’ve said it before but in my experience it’s the old timer, ‘that’s not my job’ obstructionists who are against this, and looking for everyone to hold out for some imaginary deal they feel we could get while failing to remember not everyone is in their comfortable position.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119712894#Comment_119712894

Thanks for your childish un-constructive comment.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119712897#Comment_119712897

I think I have more than demonstrated that i am fully aware that not everyone is in a comfortable position. But you can continue to keep trying to push the opposite if it makes you feel better. After all, smart remarks and personal digs have been pretty much all you've contributed to this thread.

Some people simply can't disagree without making it personal.

nothing more tiresome than the holier than thou posturing adopted consistently by loueze in this thread while painting absolutely any disagreement with her as knavery of the worst sort. its childish carry on tbh.

many people made many nuanced points about the deal, for and against, and many others went in making crude and ill considered points that were insulting and unnecessary.

i need hardly say that you are far from without sin on the latter yourself and im not a bit surprised to see you yet again making oversimplified sweeping judgements against those who have long since stopped engaging with you.

Sam the Sham

Saying “we could have got a better deal if only huge percentages of union members weren’t in favour of this one” is a bit like saying “we would’ve won the election if the other side hadn’t got so many votes.”

Mass acceptance of this deal is, among other things, a measure of how unlikely a “better deal” was.

pc7

That's it for me Sam, there was no better deal, not in the current economic climate.

Did Unite accept it?

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119712763#Comment_119712763

Youve stated above you won't be moving out of the service. That's happy enough in my book.

You highlight the negative of being a pre 95 entrant without highlighting the considerable benefit the pre 95ers have over their colleagues.

You suggest the Unions were stronger 'back in the day' however I didn't see the masses out on strike when various agreements over the years eroded the conditions slowly but steadily relative to your own. Why was this?

Things were always better years ago

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119712966#Comment_119712966

And yet here you are again, coming out swinging and adding your tuppence worth.

Strange, when you yourself said this deal wasn't worth supporting.

Pot, kettle, black.

SouthWesterly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119712950#Comment_119712950

Youve done nothing but tell us how bad a deal it is. You've also told us you're only reason for being in thd union.

Now is the time to stand up for your beliefs. Refuse the increase and negotiate yourself.

If you're not prepared to do that. Stop moaning. 90% of those who voted, voted in favour.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119713078#Comment_119713078

Well, it wasn't for a lack of trying on my part, either back then, or now. I did my share of walking on picket lines a couple of times.

Take it up with your colleagues who don't believe in standing up for themselves, or their colleagues.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119713162#Comment_119713162

nonsense.

firstly, any disagreement with you is characterised as some sort of unfair attack, regardless of how you yourself behave. so im not a bit bothered about whether you claim im 'swinging' at you or not.

secondly i made my case and disagreed with many about the deal, that's true.

im just not still here calling 90% of my fellow union members either idiots or heartless for having voted as they saw fit.

your worldview seems to allow for only those two categories in disagreeing with you.

its.....pretty telling tbh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119713304#Comment_119713304

Please, spare me the amateur psychology.

And there have been plenty of personal attacks made on me on this thread, though some poorly veiled in passive agressiveness.

I don't recall actually calling anyone an idiot, or heartless, but if I did, I'm sure there was a context to it, and they deserved it.

As advised many times, if you don't like my comments, put me on ignore, instead of coming back, yet again, to repeat how much you don't like my comments - Its getting tiresome.

sergioaguero

stupid question maybe, but an EO or HEO on 50k a year, will they get money backdated to feb? If so, do they receive a lump sum payment and when will they get that?

thanks

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119713257#Comment_119713257

I am taking it up with you - who apparantly, thinks that Unions were far stronger back in the day, when everyone cared about everyone else.

You are here making all current PS and CS workers who accepted this deal to be heartless me feiners who care not one jot about those on the lower pay scales, while back in the day members would have stood up and went on strike to improve on, what many believe, is a pretty decent deal.

You've shown yourself that this idlyic view on the past is not correct, or close to it.

Apparantly you disagreed with the actions of your colleagues back then as well. But look, you're still here. Must be hard to be in an organisation that long working with colleagues you disagree with so much for so long.

Every time the union has accepted a change in terms and conditions - are you against it - has there been any time in the past 30 years where you've been happy with the offer on the table? I suspect not.

A thinly veiled "concern" from yourself for those on lower pay. Pull the other one.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119713374#Comment_119713374

for as long as you feel free to reiterate yourself in any way you see fit on the thread i think you need not concern yourself whether I'll see fit myself to comment or not, thanks. you could follow your own advice on blocking/ignoring i guess, not for me to advise.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119713508#Comment_119713508

Look, you can keep demonising me all you like. You've tried having a go at me for being pre-95, now having a go at me because I stayed in a secure if under paid job, when I had a child to raise and a mortgage to pay for?

I never said the Unions were stronger back in the day. But I do believe the members themselves were more focused on working towards a collective good - something that's sadly lacking, these days. That's my opinion, and I'm entitled to it. I believe the more recent amalgamation with Forsa has further weakened the voice and the position of the lower paid grades, who used to have their own union.

You are here making all current PS and CS workers who accepted this deal to be heartless me feiners who care not one jot about those on the lower pay scales, while back in the day members would have stood up and went on strike to improve on, what many believe, is a pretty decent deal.

Not all. Only the ones who openly admitted as much. If you see yourself as among them, or think this is a decent deal, then that's on you.