Dublin Pride ends media partnership with RTE over Liveline's Gender Identity discussion

archfi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119237890#Comment_119237890

Emotion (via TENI etc) was elevated above everything else and fused into actual legislation via legal fictions. You can directly read that in her responses. She is the epitomy of the level of stupid that moved this forward.

LLMMLL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119237635#Comment_119237635

Except neither of us said what you portray us as saying. I never said I was not accepting of other gender identities. That’s why you have to say “you said X which means Y” instead of just “you said Y”.

since neither of us said what you wish we said you have to claims you can interpret what we meant when we said it.

why Is Anna staying a fact “that nobody is asking for all genders to be recognised” interpreted as them saying that only male and female SHOULD be recognised. You are completely twisting his words.

here is an example. You say you don’t give a flying f how people identify. This obviously means you hate trans people and wish them all dead. I mean you never said it but that doesn’t matter anymore. I’m shocked at how you could want all trans people dead.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119238333#Comment_119238333

Should someone's identity of, say, staticgender, be legally recognised on someone's passport or birth certificate?

LLMMLL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119238424#Comment_119238424

When someone asks for staticgender to be recognized in Irish law then I will consider my position on it. Do you have a link to this request? A news story from the Irish times maybe?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119238333#Comment_119238333

Apologies if I have misrepresented you. For clarity when you said you were "agnostic" when it comes to other genders, I interpreted that to say you do not support but are open to the possibility of it being real.

The only logical interpretation of that is that you do not support other genders in the same way you do transwomen and transmen. Can I ask why your lack of support? Does it come from the fact that you either do not believe in the other genders validity (or at least its validity when compared to transwomen/transmen) at the moment, or you simply don't care that much about other genders?

If you could clarify where exactly I am misrepresenting you, and explain why you are agnostic towards some genders and not others, I will gladly hear you out.

Anna saying that nobody is asking for all genders to be recognised. This includes Anna. It is inconsistent that someone who claims to be a trans(gender) rights activist to not ask for all genders from being legally recognised. I don's see how that is in any way disputable.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119238447#Comment_119238447

If you are in favour of the principle of legal recognition of an individual's gender, it makes no logical sense to restrict that right to only two genders (which conveniently coincide with the two sexes).

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119238447#Comment_119238447

Ok. I want staticgender to be recognised in Irish Law, as it seems exclusionary that it isn't.

Now, that you have your request, what is your position?

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119237884#Comment_119237884

No. She didn't say Ireland has 9 genders. I don't accept your original point no. I accept she said there are probably around 9 genders.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119238551#Comment_119238551

Is it possible to differentiate between a legitimate gender and a non-legitimate gender?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119238744#Comment_119238744

This is simply false.

Five minutes ago you didn’t give a fcuk about gender or gender identity, now you want all genders to be recognised in law.

We're not saying that we want all genders recognised in law; that's just misleading.

We're saying that it's inconsistent to be a supporter of gender recognition legislation if that legislation only applies to the two sexes - and says nothing about all genders.

Either you care about "trans rights" or you don't. If the same advocates of trans rights are saying that non-binary genders should not be included in the legislation or that they have no opinion or that they are "agnostic", they owe an explanation for that - as it is wholly inconsistent with saying, almost breathlessly at this stage, that "trans rights are human rights".

Patrick2010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119238551#Comment_119238551

Your earlier post doesn't mention probably...

"According to twitter link above she she thinks there are 9 genders. No idea if that's a direct transcript or what she means."

72sheep

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119238744#Comment_119238744

But oej this is the very crux of the matter. td is just demonstrating exactly how this all plays out. For some reason you believe that our societal institutions care about such minuscule groups. That is the biggest mystery of all.

It's easier to distract from the housing scandals (impacts everyone) when you're pretending to empathise with millions of individual "lived experiences". But hey, who needs community anyhow. 

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119238838#Comment_119238838

The Gender Recognition Act is there to protect two genders from discrimination.

No it’s not. The gender recognition act exists to recognise a person’s right to their gender identity. It is the various equality acts which prohibit discrimination and protect everyone from discrimination on the ground of gender. The other eight grounds in Irish legislation are as follows -

• Civil status
• Family status
• Sexual orientation
• Religion
• Age (does not apply to a person under 18)
• Disability
• Race
• Membership of the Traveller community

The gender recognition act says nothing about protecting two genders. It simply allows for a person’s preferred gender identity to be recognised in Irish law.

In the last review of the GRA, there was talk of extending the gender recognition act to include individuals who identify as non-binary, and extending the right to children under the age of 18 (currently it applies to children over 16 in limited circumstances), and it’s all out there in the public domain, no trying to squeeze it in or rush it in under any other campaigns as is often the accusation by people who need to pretend this was indeed the case.

I wouldn’t have been so harsh if I thought you weren’t fully aware of all this stuff already though as it’s been discussed in the numerous, numerous threads which have existed before this one.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119239015#Comment_119239015

"The gender recognition act says nothing about protecting two genders. It simply allows for a person’s preferred gender identity to be recognised in Irish law"

But limited to two genders of male and female?

That's my point.

And if it IS opened to non-binary, how many genders will be recognised?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119239015#Comment_119239015

...there was talk of extending the gender recognition act to include individuals who identify as non-binary, and extending the right to children under the age of 18 (currently it applies to children over 16 in limited circumstances).

But do you agree with this?

bokale

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119239040#Comment_119239040

So you agree that gender recognition act should exist, but be expanded is it?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119239050#Comment_119239050

No.

I am not in favour of the self identification and don't believe someone's "gender" should have any legal status.

But if there has to be an act to allow people to have their Gender lawfully recognised, then surely it should be expanded, or else you are legitimising some genders and delegitimising others.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119239081#Comment_119239081

Ah OK

You want the GRA act repealed. Good to know next time you claim to support trans people's rights that you are lying.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119238913#Comment_119238913

td is just demonstrating exactly how this all plays out.

He’s not though. Both he and eskimo are trying for the slippery slope fallacy where “if you allow for this, then it will logically lead to this, this and this, and you must be consistent or you’re being discriminatory”.

It’s a stupid argument as there is no demand from anyone to have 99 genders recognised in Irish law, except from those who are opposed to anyone having the right to their gender identity recognised in Irish law in the first place.

The right to freedom of expression and freedom of speech protects everyone’s right to claim they are the gender or sex they claim to be already, no different than anyone who claims to be Catholic and there’s another crowd pointing fingers and claiming they can’t be Catholic. Nobody has to give a shìt because their freedom of religion is already protected in Irish law, same as everyone’s freedom from religion is already protected in Irish law, which means employers cannot discriminate against anyone on the basis of religion in certain circumstances as permitted in Irish law. There are exemptions in equality legislation under which discrimination is permitted and lawful.

I could be a picky fcuker too and point out that the housing scandals certainly do not impact everyone, but that’d be me being unreasonable when I understand perfectly what you mean. That’s not me pretending I empathise with millions of people’s “lived experiences”.

Of course people need community, that’s why I’m equally perplexed as you are at the idea that you refer to minuscule groups - 20 odd years ago I was among a miniscule group of people who are homeless and sleeping on the streets. It’s because of community support that I’m not. It wasn’t Government support, because I knew fcukall at the time about being entitled to assistance from the State, it was being surrounded by people who I knew gave a shìt (also picked up a few handy tips on how to apply makeup 😂). My wife often used refer to me (affectionately, I like to think so, at least), as “Forrest Gump”, due to what she sees as an inexplicable good fortune in spite of the fact I’m not the sharpest pencil in the box, but that’s because she isn’t aware of, and doesn’t need to be made aware of, all the other shìte I go through on a daily basis.

We all have our difficulties and struggles, and I’ve never seen the point in trying to make anyones life more difficult just for the hell of it, or playing the victim when you aren’t the victim of unfair treatment. Thankfully for everyone else in society - that kind of behaviour is limited to a fairly small number of people too.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119239219#Comment_119239219

Remember:

"Nobody is asking for all of these gender identities to be legally recognised at all"

You are happy for only CERTAIN genders to have the same rights

I'm not in favour of the GRA, but I said if it needs to be here, it should be equal for ALL genders. You aren't calling for all genders to be recognised. Yet you call yourself a TRA.

So who exactly is the liar here?

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119239268#Comment_119239268

Exactly. You support the GRA being repealed. Says a lot.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119239242#Comment_119239242

It's not a slippery slope argument.

It's saying that, if gender recognition is to exist in law, shouldn't that right be extended to non-binary individuals - as it does in many countries, such as Argentina.

If there are 100 genders, but only two are legally recognised, how does it make sense to call it a "Gender Recognition Act", when 98% of genders are ineligible to that right, should they choose to exercise it?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119239319#Comment_119239319

Should it? If that’s what you want, then there’s nothing stopping you from campaigning for an existing right to be extended to include people who identify themselves as non-binary.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119239315#Comment_119239315

It does.

It says that if the GRA doesn't include all gender identities, and only is there to identify as the opposite SEX, then it isn't about gender really is it?

I also said that if there was a need for a GRA, then it would be unfair to legitimise only two genders and thereby delegitimising others.

You as a TRA only seem to be concerned about the genders that apply to the two sexes. That says a lot.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119239343#Comment_119239343

But do you support extending the legislation to include non-binary identities?

bokale

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119239081#Comment_119239081

Ah I get you.

Out of interest would you support it being expanded?

I think it speaks volumes that not one person who argues that "trans rights are human rights" has come out to support the idea of extending the Gender Recognition Act to non-binary people.

That says quite a lot, actually, about how when they chant that "trans rights are human rights" - it really only applies to the two sexes (which they refer to as Genders, for legislative purposes).

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119239384#Comment_119239384

If it wasn't to be repealed, then yes.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119239411#Comment_119239411

It doesn’t speak volumes at all, everyone just knows what you’re at.

For what it’s worth though, I’m not opposed to the gender recognition act being extended to include individuals who identify themselves as non-binary. It would alleviate issues they have with State documents such as passports, birth certificates and so on. It would address cases like this -

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-59667786.amp

And would further Government’s initiative to support making legislation more gender neutral. As you point out, it’s existed in other countries without issue for some time now, same as the gender recognition act has existed in Ireland for some time now without issue. It’s consistent with the direction in which Irish society is moving forward towards becoming more inclusive of everyone, and has been for some time now -

Meaning and Construction of Words and Expressions

General rules of construction.

18.—The following provisions apply to the construction of an enactment:

(a) Singular and plural. A word importing the singular shall be read as also importing the plural, and a word importing the plural shall be read as also importing the singular;

(b) Gender.

(i) A word importing the masculine gender shall be read as also importing the feminine gender;

(ii) In an Act passed on or after 22 December 1993, and in a statutory instrument made after that date, a word importing the feminine gender shall be read as also importing the masculine gender;

(c) Person. “Person” shall be read as importing a body corporate (whether a corporation aggregate or a corporation sole) and an unincorporated body of persons, as well as an individual, and the subsequent use of any pronoun in place of a further use of “person” shall be read accordingly;

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2005/act/23/section/18/enacted/en/html

That wasn’t snuck in in 2005 either 😁

The recent recommendation by the Law Society to dispense with the formal greeting in correspondence is a good example as part of its drive towards recognition of diversity in Irish society, gender equality and being inclusive of all members of the legal profession in Irish society -

https://www.decisis.ie/legal-news/gendered-language-and-the-law-farewell-sirs/

https://www.lawsociety.ie/News/Media/Press-Releases/law-society-of-ireland-launches-new-gender-equality-diversity-and-inclusion-task-force

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119239603#Comment_119239603

Well, at least you've expressed an opinion on the matter and have no objection to the GRA being extended to non-binary people. But that means supporting having identities, such as staticgender and boggender, on identity documents. To me, that goes too far.

For what it's worth, I don't believe that such an extension should manifest. Instead, I'd think it better to repeal and replace the act with legislation that is balanced between the demands of trans activists and the legitimate concerns of the general public - most notably how this kind of legislation impacts women.

The GRA opened up a smorgasbord of unintended consequences that were not foreseen at the time, but which are having an impact now.