FEC committee & final report - **UPDATE post 442**

BSA International

Doesn't minister have to sign an SI first?

Not over ........ yet ........

Grizzly 45

Part 5 is the one that concerns us, but we are into the fat lady clearing her throat time now before going centre stage for the finale.

Cass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120909690#Comment_120909690

This is a new Act, is it not? An SI doesn't need all the stages of a Bill and this went through them.

As soon as the President signs it into law it becomes an Act and is added to the statute books. Whether the Act is enacted immediately or at a later date is up to the Minister.

Cass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120909834#Comment_120909834

She is already singing, to overuse the pun.

It's law, done and dusted, and now it's only a matter of when it's enacted. At this point, given how thing have gone this far, do you expect the Minister to now decide to change her/his mind on any aspect of the Act?

Cass

Marked as enacted on the Oireachtas website.

Section 10 amends section 3 of the 1925 principle act with the insertion of section 3(D)(a).

a2423.pdf

Grizzly 45

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120910012#Comment_120910012

Well then it's war...In a judicial sense of course.

Cass

There are better ways to piss away a hundred grand (plus).

Just sayin.

BSA International

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120910003#Comment_120910003

You live & learn.

BSA International

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120910227#Comment_120910227

Only 1 shooting association with that kind of cash and they don't fight legal battles like they used to.

TheEngineer1

If there was ever something worth spending a shooting organisations money on, surely it is fighting to for our fellow shooters to be able to continue to participate in the sport that we all love? And so that future potential shooters have the opportunity to take up the sport no matter what discipline it is. Doesn't matter if it's shotguns or rifles or hunting or target shooting. We're all in the same boat and on the same side.

BSA International

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120913140#Comment_120913140

I assume your a paid up member of this association who's money your so willing to spend?

They wouldn't fund a number of moderator refusals for me. I'm a paid up member for 20+ years.

There is little to no hope of this being won in court. Same was done on fullbore pistol ban previously and that was never overturned despite anecdotal evidence of individuals taking court action/s

tonysopprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120913140#Comment_120913140

While I agree with your sentiment, it might be worth trawling back through the various threads (to as far back to 2004), just to see how treacherous the various organisations are towards each other and to see how much they rat out each other and throw everybody else under the bus to advance their own agendas. Irish shooting organisations have NEVER stood together and I fear never will.

Cass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120913140#Comment_120913140

Not a chance, and frankly I don't blame them. They have a mandate from their members and it doesn't include fighting for, and hence paying for, the survival of a discipline of a sport they hold no sway over.

Without starting a row, as it's asinine not to mention moot at this stage, this has been coming since 2015 and those with the most to lose did nothing to try and head it off. Only in 2020 when it was mentioned again (by the Minister) and in mid 2021when movement was made on it by the Minister's office did some start to notice and even then only when the junior Minister started looking at other aspects did everyone sit up and take notice.

We had the chance to affect this when it was in its infancy, now we don't.

As I said I'm fed up singing this song but some still think this came out of left field when in fact we had nearly 8 years to address it and it wasn't done. Instead there was denial it would happen, coupled with people trying to shift the responsibility of fighting it to others with deeper pockets but no interest.

I mean, how many NARGC members will actually be affected by this? Considering this effects about 1% of the entire shooting community!

Grizzly 45

They wouldn't fund a number of moderator refusals for me. I'm a paid up member for 20+ years.

Ever follow it up as to why you are being refused X number of times for a Mod, and why this "organisation" wouldn't fund it either? There has to be some reason,but maybe that organisation is broke from taking badly advised cases in the pistol ban era?

There is little to no hope of this being won in court. The same was done on full bore pistol ban previously and that was never overturned despite anecdotal Factual and winning evidence of individuals taking court action/s

Fixed that for ya!

The point of those high court and dist cases was not about overturning legislation, but about blanket bans by AGS Chief Superintendents on CF pistol owners as they believed there was no good reason to license such in the state once they had banned IPSC.Forgetting about a myriad of other CF pistol disciplines out there too.

.

Cass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120913319#Comment_120913319

Amen.

freddieot

The CF handgun court cases were more about interpretation policies and implementation leading to refusals. They were not as I recall about challenging legislation or trying to get laws overturned etc.

Once you get into that scene, you'll need a lot more than the 100k previously mentioned, especially if the case was lost.

The issue is that everyone is ready to fight a war but very few will put their hands in their pockets when it comes to it. The ptb know this. Even if there was one umbrella organisation with say 20,000 members, it would be an almighty job to just get €20 from each person to start a proper war chest and that's what is really needed.

Nobody offered to pay for my appeals by the way, back in the recent unpleasantness and that was back before costs were being awarded in the District Court, even when you won. At least since then that situation has totally changed.

I'd day to anyone, who is refused anything they need, that if they really need it then court action is your option but I don't see why other members of any organisation should foot the cost of an appeal for an individual.

Cass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120913386#Comment_120913386

In a nutshell.

Grizzly 45

Different crisis, same old sad song.

"Oh, we'll never get pistols and big cal rifles back in Ireland... Frank Brophy et al HC cases.

"Ohhh it's the end of all centrefire pistols as we know them once IPSC is gone"....Didn't happen. Those that took cases and appealed won in 98% of the Dist court cases.

"They'll never win the mag capacity case in the HC It's the end of 22 pistols!".... HC finds in our favour.

"You'll never win and get semi-auto rifles in the district court! sure they'll just do...." 18 wins in the Limerick District court between 2011/14 specifically on semi-auto rifles...Now law that any pre-2015 semi-auto rifles are exempt because of these cases. Plus costs are awarded to the plaintiffs. The sudden remarkable drop in Dc cases where Supers and Cheifs are now on their collar pins if they lose.

"Ahh, it will be all over once the EU legislation bans all semi-auto rifles in the EU!" EU doesn't ban semi-auto rifles, courtesy of two very tough women and intense paperwork and factual report done by another while undergoing chemotherapy, but enacts legislation that they had been sitting on about EU stds of deactivation and parts marking. Allows still in most countries to keep high cap mags for pistols and long arms if you can prove a good reason for need. IE IPSC competitions. Irish Govt **** up yet again and bans the CAPACITY, not the MAGAZINE BODY which was the norm in all EU countries. End result. You can block your 20-round mags and still use them with 10 rounds.

"The lead shoot ban will DOOOOM us all, and make us have to dump all our shotguns and every puddle will be off limits to shooting!"

STILL, no maps published by the Irish govt on these areas that will be lead shot banned,lead shot is still available. How will this be enforced? I think our Gardai will be better employed on our streets to prevent our tourists from getting their heads kicked in in Dublin, or dealing with our armed Narco gangs roaming our cities at will than standing in a pair of waders in a duck blind out in the estuaries asking to inspect our shotgun ammo at oh dark hundred.

I hope we all realise that despite the fewer numbers that may be involved in the specific disciplines, we have been bucking the EU trends despite it all in actual wins to keep what we hold...So watch this space

Cass

Perhaps I'm misreading your post so correct me if I'm wrong.

Centrefire pistols - banned

High capacity mags - banned

22 pistols - limited to 5 rounds

Semi auto rifles - banned

What exactly has been won in the sense that it was won in court and has not been subsequently banned/overturned by legislation since?

We had fleeting moments with some articles and longer with others but there is nothing can be done when the legislature gets the bit between their teeth. We have nothing to bargain with and nothing to give up that they cannot simply take.

BSA International

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120913356#Comment_120913356

To clarify, I was referring to those who got f/b pistol licences post the date in 2008 when the f/b pistol ban began, not those pre 2008 ban who could reapply to keep their pistols and many who had to go to Court, including yourself.

I was also referring to a scuttlebutt that a few "rich" business men tried to licence f/b pistols post 2018 (these were not renewals) and weren't successful.

BSA International

The Brophy case. What calibre was the case taken for?

tonysopprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120913755#Comment_120913755

BROPHY -V- SUPERINTENDENT J P KEHOE 2004/377 JR .22LR and .375HH

See also

Mc Veigh 2004 or 2005about importation of firearms

JP22

I agree with everyone’s thoughts/comments over past dozen or so posts however, I think Cass (post 824) basically nailed it on the head.

Handling firearms (hunting/shooting/FCA/PDF/overseas etc. etc. since I was 16 years old) for past 47 odd years at this stage, in all of that time we always had some sort of in-fighting/disagreements (some going to courts) both within organisations and with other organisations, unfortunately upmanship also comes to mind.

What’s worst of all in my opinion is the total lack of co-operation between the various organisations when it comes to matters that directly relate to firearms ownership & use which affects us all.

In the grand scale of things, we are a tiny country, with a tiny amount of firearms/owners/target shooters/hunters etc., we have numerous organisations representing their own sport, fair play to them BUT end of day each group is minding their own corner or their own slice of the cake, BUT all of them are NOT looking at the bigger picture.

To me the bigger picture is firearms legislation, whatever group/sport you’re in, if you don’t have/can’t have/can’t get the firearm in the first place then you’re/my sport/discipline no longer exists in this country.

I’ve said it before but I’ll say it again, each sport/discipline needs its own organisation BUT it beggars belief that we can’t have one organisation which represents us all in matters relating directly to firearms law/regulations/politics regarding same, etc. etc.

Until we get such organisation (similar to IFA for farming) we are at a lost cause.

If you don’t have a hammer, you can’t hammer a nail………………………

Rant over………………………… and out…………… enjoy your weekend...............

garrettod

Rather then reflect on what could have been, would we not all be better off doing more to oppose Browne, and stop him from pushing through further legislative changes, that disadvantage the good law abiding citizens that we all are?

tonysopprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120914166#Comment_120914166

Not meaning, in any way to be facetious, you, as an almost 20 year member, with nearly 2500 posts, are only now copping on to what the rest of us have been saying, for the last 20 years. Where was this call for activism before?. Reminds me of the frog in the pot, brought to boil slowly, or are you the frog double-crossed by the scorpion?

Cass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120914166#Comment_120914166

As was said above that attitude is good, but always comes after a legislative bashing and is never present before.

This could have been fought over the last 8 years but was only acted upon when it was already too late.

If they go for, example, restricted shotguns next. For the majority of the time between now and any legislation there will be nothing said or done. Most won't know what is happening and even more still will resort to the same old " I'm not interested in politics" line. Then when it's about 6 months out from actual legislation and a bill is drafted everyone and their dog will come out and scream bloody murder as to why nothing was done and blame the associations for their lack of action.

That is not a dig at anyone or any group, but the outrage always comes after the fact, never before when it can do some good.

BSA International

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120913833#Comment_120913833

Cheers 😉

So a case for a .22lr opened the way for 9mm's and other fullbore calibres?

Nicholas Flood had and won a case for a .308. He was a multi Euro winning medal Sils shooter at time IIRC

Grizzly 45

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120914016#Comment_120914016

This is what FURG is supposed to be,but as an insider to it, it needs to be more "toothier" than what is and more reactive. It was slumbering for almost 12 months, until the news broke about the licenses being limited to a specific area, did it kick into 2nd gear. The semi-auto rifles didn't even figure on their radar until it was brought to their attention by FUNI and PRI! But it's not all their fault. I've yet to see on zoom calls any reps from some organisations that are featured in the overall umbrella contributing anything or participating.

Specifically, groups that should be VERY concerned about how this ban will now decimate and prevent any growth in future unless the participants want to use Cat C straight pull or MARS type firearms in disciplines like PCC, Bullseye 360, Classic semi-auto, 1500 M1carbine ...Yet they have a clear mandate from ASFAIS all their associated clubs to kill this ban for the last three years.Why no active participation? Quite frankly, I'm not surprised that during the last two visits of FURG to the DOJ and meeting with Minister Browne, it was NARGC and three deer hunting orgs!!!

We have had to suggest that the next meeting should include someone from the non-hunting groups for a different perspective...But if there is no one participating from the big boys on the target side and wanting to coordinate a meeting plan...Don't be surprised if you are being represented, or not, by people who know little or nothing about your discipline.

Ultimately, this falls back on us too, We are paying these organisations to represent our interests and we need to be asking awkward questions of them as to what is the current state of affairs and what is their plans and positions. We can not afford to be fobbed off with "ah I'll get back to you on that!" and its forgotten about 3 minutes later,until you ask again. This is the age of accountability openness and transparency, people are taking your money to represent you they need to be able to tell you facts and get you information within 4 days tops. We as punters need to get a lot more Bolshie and stop leaving it to "someone else" to make the call ,write the email,ask the reps.

Grizzly 45

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120913742#Comment_120913742

Was more fact than scuttlebutt, but died in the Gestation stage.

They obviously had VERY good lawyers who told them the odds of winning that particular case on their points were less than the proverbial snowball. Or that if they went the whole ballroom of dist, the high, supreme court. it would cost more than their collective funds with still no assured outcome. Those that did get liscenses post 08 aSFIK are folks that had previous liscenses and for want of a better term,"stopped " them by putting guns in dealershipsfor whatever reason and reactivated them from already pre 2008 liscenses.But I doubt very much anyone got a brand new issued liscense post Nov 08. If there is anyone who did,we'd all love to hear from them.

Grizzly 45

Nobody offered to pay for my appeals by the way, back in the recent unpleasantness and that was back before costs were being awarded in the District Court, even when you won. At least since then that situation has totally changed.

I'd day to anyone, who is refused anything they need, that if they really need it then court action is your option but I don't see why other members of any organisation should foot the cost of an appeal for an individual.

^AMEN^,and talk to NARGC about that point of taking court cases esp badly advised ones to both the High and Supreme court. [Look up Mc Carron judgement] The only way this will change is when Ireland ,finally,allows class action lawsuits and that is very much becoming a reality as legislation is there but is being delayed by the bewigged ones of bulging wallets who would lose out on this.