General Premier League Thread 2022-23 - mod note in OP 12/03/23

razorblunt

Goodison is eerily quiet.

Pipmae

10 mins added time in the Everton match

Unearthly

Bye bye Leeds

retalivity

The big sam experiment went well

pjohnson

Time to fire Dyche and bring back Frank again to improve playing style.

Right?

martyos121

Just waiting now for the memes of City’s title celebrations compared to Everton’s 17th place celebrations.

citytillidie

Final table

citytillidie

...

El Gato De Negocios

Well done Everton, delighted to see them stay up.

Drumpot

City on 89 points sort of confirms a sentiment I have always had that total points in a season means f**k all. Is this one of the worst city teams to win the league as their points tally would suggest? Is this the strongest league they’ve played in When winning a league? That’s a nope to both the points.

They wouldn’t be the first team to ease up or drop silly points when the league was being won at a canter. It’s not just happened in the last 10 years, plenty of seasons when champions dropped silly points , particularly when there wasn’t a big threat.

AllGunsBlazing

Leeds and Leicester might well bringing the lawyers off the bench. Could be a long, hot summer for the EPL top brass between City and Everton.

jacool

Everton so lucky they got a referee who was poor beyond belief.

The gamesmanship from Pickford, Mina, Tarkowski, etc. plus the fouls from Onana, nothing punished bar a yellow so obvious it would have looked like he was on their books if he hadn't given it. He booked two Bournemouth players in the same incident, but Mina off leading with head on loads of occasions.

Everton's reward is to see if their players can play like they did for the last few months, for an entire season. Lucky they're not paid by performance. They got half their points in their last 15 games.

One plus for them - Garner looks quality, never seemed to feel the pressure at all. A bargain buy.

They were lucky that this season there were 3 way more abject sides in the league. The last time that 36 points wasn't enough to keep you up, was when Leicester City won the title. I can't see themselves or Leeds coming back up next season though. Leicester will see all their talented players getting bought, and the world and his mother knows that Leeds don't really have any. Gnonto, probably, but he's back to off to Italy by all accounts. Its rebuild, reset, and look forward to your win column going into double figures.

With 30 manager changes (including caretaker) in the Championship, not counting the 4 end of season ones, you'd nearly want to have 2 managers lined up.

nullzero

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120651239#Comment_120651239

Big Sam was yesterday's man 15 years ago.

jacool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120651306#Comment_120651306

The lawyers are coming for Everton, but they were able to push any decisions like points deductions into next season. By all accounts any punishments would actually be financial only, no real fear of points being taken off and starting on -9 or something. Burnley are also involved because of their relegation last season.

NIMAN

Big Sam earned 1pt from a possible 12.

Hopefully that's the last we'll see of him.

billyhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120651394#Comment_120651394

He's a spoofer.

machiavellianme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120651394#Comment_120651394

Even Lampard bettered him with 4pts from a possible 24!

mobydopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120651515#Comment_120651515

Lampard to Leeds ?

Honestly though, Lampard should go back to managing in the Championship. He's just not cut out for the Premier league yet

Mushy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120651606#Comment_120651606

If the new owners want to be hated from the start, that'd be a good way to do it. I'd imagine they would have ambitions of getting promoted, no point throwing that in the bin from day 1

noodler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120651289#Comment_120651289

What do you mean?

City were better in the seasons Liverpool pushed them to 90+ points, it wasn't meaningless?

jacool

Just watching Villa-Brighton on Sky - more excellent refereeing.

Brighton get a free-kick which McAllister takes quickly to Ferguson, who is in for 1-1, but referee says Villa weren't 10 yards back, so its a re-take. Brighton go to re-take but Villa still aren't back so Brighton go short, McAllister gets caught in possession by McGinn and its 2-0. You can see the players aren't back 10m because it all happens in the centre circle. Can't see a reason why the referee took back the original free, if he was going to not blow for the same thing 30 seconds later. Maybe he didn't want to see Ferguson get cut in half by Martinez. Ferguson actually got MOTM on the BBC, Sky gave him 5/10!

Pauliedragon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120651239#Comment_120651239

It worked out well for Sambo. Half a mill for a few weeks work. That'll buy a few pints of wine.

Flaneur OBrien

With Luton going up, is that now 8 teams in the league based in London? Is there any other league with such an imbalance (geographically speaking, it may be proportionate population wise) but that’s a huge amount of derbies in a single league, 56 to be exact.

(Arsenal, Brentford, Chelsea, Crystal Palace, Fulham, Luton, Spurs, West Ham)

CSF

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120652592#Comment_120652592

Ireland

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120652592#Comment_120652592

Luton isn't in London. Despite the airport name, it's 30 miles from London.

retalivity

Might as well include brighton if youre going to include luton

artanevilla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120652605#Comment_120652605

Yes League of Ireland is a Dublin centric league. 50% of Premier Division teams are based in Dublin. (and if you're including Luton then you may as well include Drogheda and Dundalk in that taking it up to 70%)

loyatemu

London has a lot of professional clubs - QPR, Charlton and Wimbledon have all been in the EPL as well in the past, Millwall have gotten close. Is there any other city with so many top-flight or former top-flight clubs?

HalloweenJack

12 out of 16 teams in this years Uruguayan top flight are from Montevideo.

Nearly 10 million out of 56 million people live in "Greater" London, according to Wiki. So just over 1 in 6 English people live there or something like 16-17%. Proportionally, three London teams would be a 'fair' representation.

FWIW, 2011-12 had five London teams and four "Greater" Manchester (2.8m) teams (City, United, Wigan, Bolton).

Talisman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120652592#Comment_120652592

If you were to look at the distribution of the 2022/23 Premier League clubs on a map there are three major clusters.

London (6): Arsenal, Brentford, Chelsea, Crystal Palace, Fulham, Tottenham, West Ham.

North West (5): Everton, Leeds, Liverpool, Man City, Man Utd.

Midlands (4): Aston Villa, Leicester, Nottingham Forest, Wolves.

Leeds is further from Manchester than both Burnley and Sheffield are.

Bournemouth, Brighton and Newcastle are the only clubs in next season's league that won't be in one of the clusters.

IncognitoMan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120651956#Comment_120651956

A lot of people base their arguments about "best ever PL side" around point totals.

As in a team who gets 95 points is better than a team that got 89/90 (no matter how far apart the seasons). A very simplistic way of looking at things.

This title win was a classic SAF win. Kick into gear after Xmas and pull in your opponents in the business end and go up a gear at that end of the season.

City hit form at the perfect time to put themselves in a position to win all competitions they were in and it could result in their greatest ever season and one of the best seen in England.

But some will still think the 100 point City team are better because they got more points despite failing to beat Wigan in an FA cup and Liverpool in the CL.

An obsession with point totals without any context around them. Winning the titles is all that matters and winning more titles in the same season is a far better indicator of a better team

noodler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120653390#Comment_120653390

There's other reasons but I'm not sure it's fair to almost discount city (or Liverpool to a lesser extent) in those periods because they "had" to accumulate that number of points.

What's evident is that they did when they had to, whereas it's hearsay as to whether the other previous winners could have.

That's not even getting into the squad depth, athleticism, simply observing how good they are.

89 points is an incredible return as well of course.

The really comes across as a bit of a defence for previous winners not being designated the best team compared to these City machines.

Flaneur OBrien

I’m really in no position to do the maths (waiting for a bus), but if you added up all the points won for all teams, and then expressed City’s total points (for example) as a percentage out of that total, would that be a fairer representation of how strong their team was comparatively to the rest of the league?

I’m beginning to think football stats are just a way to keep lads interests who can’t kick a ball 😂

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120652618#Comment_120652618

Everyday is a school day. Always thought Luton was in London

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120653424#Comment_120653424

Its impossible to compare teams from different eras. The dominance of Man City in the last few year is either because they are the best team of this and every generation or the competitiveness and average quality of premier league clubs in the premier league in the last few years is less than it was years ago, but there is no stat that can definitively prove either position.

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120653583#Comment_120653583

Utd won 8 of the first 11 Premier League titles. City still have a bit to go to match that.

McFly85

Cities 2 most impressive titles have been their slender wins over Liverpool, requiring nothing less than absolute perfection down the stretch to pip them. They were also well on course to do the same but Arsenal crumbled so naturally the foot came off the gas.

Breaking 100 points was impressive in its own right but there was zero competition for them in the league that year.

I do think points totals can indicate just how good a team is, but it should probably be qualified against the strength of competition that year too.

It’s not the first time recently I’ve heard totals being dismissed, and I guess it’s because City now have a very real possibility of completing the treble so it will be compared against Uniteds and they won the league that year with a relatively low points total.

But I will say as a Liverpool fan, Uniteds will be the bigger achievement because while they may not have accumulated as many points as City they didn’t spend over a decade ignoring league rules to build the team that achieved it.

Suvarnabhumi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120653619#Comment_120653619

I would expect them to win the next 3, so they'd have 8 in 9 years, unless the 115 charges stops them in their tracks.

artanevilla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120652266#Comment_120652266

He did okay, caused plenty of problems, mades some good runs in behind the Villa defence mainly finding the space due to Villa's high line. Finishing probably not the best on the day but certainly didn't look out of place in a team and against a team who will be playing in Europe next year.

IncognitoMan

It's not that a team who gets a huge point total isn't a great team. Obviously to get 90 points in the league or above you have to be a great side.

The issue is that there are arguments based solely on this logic. There's people saying that Utd 99 doesn't hold up because it was 79 points but it ignores everything else around that to focus on just one number.

Utd 00 won the league with 91 points for instance with less games to focus on but everyone understands that was a far lesser achievement than 12 months previous. Nobody would argue that Utd were a better side 12 months later.

But plenty argue that Liverpool PL runners up on 97 points are a better side than Utd 99. It's doesn't hold up. And it's always because of the point total.

The further the space in time the less relevant the point totals are for comparing as the game simply has changed.

There were a lot more teams in the 90s and early 00s who were happy to **** house their way to a point at home against the bigger sides. They were allowed to be a lot more physical as well. Attacking players are far better protected now than then as well (which is a massive positive).

Teams now further down the league are more likely to play a bit of football. Makes it an easier and better watch but I also think it makes it easier for a team like City to pick up wins there as they are simply no match for them player to player.

So yeah.... Comparing point totals in that way just doesn't work

Mitch Connor

on the best team stuff, very difficult to compare across periods. If the United treble team is considered poor(er) because the points tally how rubbish was the rest of the league?

Even comparing player for player, you would have greater fitness in the current players due to.... 'ahem'.... 'medical advances'

But, all things being equal in terms of stength/conditioning, I can't think a United side of

Schmeichel, Neville, Johnsen, Stam, Irwin, Keane, Scholes, Giggs, Beckham, Cole, Yorke (with Butt, Sheringham, Solskjaer)

The Arsenal, Bayern, Barca, Juve and Inter sides that United came up against were no mugs.

Fitz*

I think the advancement in sport science over the last 25 years gives a bit of weight to the current sides being 'better'. The 90s seemed to be the last of the era of the players playing while hungover. Gary Neville has said in the past that he thinks Man United won a few of their leagues because they didn't drink alcohol during the season. The modern day PL footballer is expected to be professional in all aspects of their life these days - training, diet, recovery, extra gym sessions, yoga, off the pitch life etc. It's a lot different to the days of Robbie Savage drinking a bottle of wine in his hotel bed the night before a PL game, and I would think think that stuff like that was quite common.

It's too hard to compare sides from different eras though. Too many changes in the game across different eras - playing styles, cultures, money in the league, lifestyle etc. Can you compare Man City 22-23 to Man City 17/18? Sure. But comparing them to the Chelsea 14/15 team is a bit trickier, there's too much of a gap there, let alone 25 years back.

IncognitoMan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120654574#Comment_120654574

Of course if you had a time machine and went and picked up the 99 team and brought them back to today I've no doubt they'd struggle against better conditioned players.

If that's the way of looking at it then the best team ever will come around every 15-20 years as we enter new eras with better knowledge.

Achievements and the context around those achievements are very important.

If City win the treble in 25 years the 2023 squad will be remembered as a better team than the 2018 side. It'll definitely be more celebrated *

*providing they don't actually end up getting the book thrown at them by the PL

Drumpot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120654435#Comment_120654435

That 99 year was insane.

CL group with. Barca and Bayern , then facing Bayern in final and beating Inter and Juventus on the way to that final. The serie a was the strongest league back then, would be like a European team facing top Klopp pool that’s top quality, city , Barca and Bayern (3 games) on the way to the CL. That just doesn’t happen nowadays, partially because there’s more canon fodder games and you don’t get groups with 3 world class teams.

But this was my point, you just can’t say “that team got 100 points so was best team ever” if you are incapable of factoring in all other elements of a season.

Not just that, the fitness element does make it impossible to ever truly say that “this team is better than that team 30 years ago” etc. So weghorst would make mince meat of the best defences in the land back in the 80s because he’s super fit and strong, does that mean he’s the best striker of the 80s in some weird multi verse. No , it doesn’t, same thing applies to comparing teams.

The champion at any given time in point is the best team of their peers. But there’s so many variables at play, it’s just impossible to definitively say one team is absolutely superior to another. I won’t see a better Season for United than 1999 for a number of reasons, not least the drama in how they won.

So many memorable games, winning the league on final day of season pipping the league champs , beating the same league champions in the most memorable fa cup semi final ever and winning the CL beating all the best teams in the competition culminating in an unbelievable final 5 minutes of the tournament.

United winning every game in the league in one season wouldn’t come close to topping that. I do wonder if there are older Liverpool fans who remember and of their seasons in the 80s more fondly. Some of that is probably nostalgia but I can’t imagine swapping United 99 for any other United team.

Infoseeker1975

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120653619#Comment_120653619

If Klopp wasn't around they would definitely have won 8 titles in 8 years, it will take them 9 years now.

doc_17

I think there could be an opening for a team to challenge City again next season. Playing a season like this, with a relatively small squad, could take a toll like it did with Liverpool.

Plus, City could lose Silva and Gundogan this summer. KDB on the other side of 30 and there’s chat Rodri could leave as he’d not entirely happy in Manchester.

You never know….

giveitholly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120655811#Comment_120655811

Yeah but they will just go out and buy players to replace them

martyos121

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120655811#Comment_120655811

I dunno, they’ll be very tough to beat once Haaland fully settles in over the summer.

theoneeyedman

Small squad.?????

jacool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120655113#Comment_120655113

Take your time machine and bring the current players back to 1999. Let them feel what tackles were tolerated back then. Bernardo Silva and Jack Grealish would be stretchered off after 15 minutes would be my guess.