Should Zoos be banned?

pgj2015

Was just listening to this debate on radio. I was in a zoo lately, nice day out but it feels a bit wrong, some of the animals like the chimps have a nice size area to wander around and privacy but some of the others like the snow leopard, red panda, wolves, penguins have tiny enclosures with no privacy from the public, this much result in utter boredom and cause certain disorders with the animals.

SouthWesterly

Zoos have come a long way since the polar bears pacing back and forward.

They are invaluable for breeding programs of endangered species.

The alternative for many animals is Extinction

magicbastarder

this is worth a listen:

https://play.acast.com/s/the-critter-shed/onzoos

Kermit.de.frog

No

sydthebeat

they do much more good than harm

whisky_galore

No.

Stick multiple conviction offenders in them. Bring back human zoos.

Muahahaha

I think they have positives, like where else are children going to see that amount of animals, not like everyone can just fly to Africa. So they are good from an educational perspective.

But on the flip side no one is going to convince me that keeping an animal like giraffes or leopards in an enclosure when they roam for a hundred miles in the wild is good for them. They can come up with all the marketing spin they want and call the enclosure the African Plains but at the end of the day it is just a few lousy acres and the animals are bored. The only argument against it is that the animals are captive several generations so wouldnt survive in the wild anyway. But at some point their forebearers were taken from the wild and put in encloseures that are tiny compared to their natural roaming range in the wild.

On conservation Im dubious of some of their claims. Some zoos do good conservation work on animals in danger of extinction. But others are basically breeding programs for profit under the guise of conservation. In Sydney a couple of years ago a company set up a brand new zoo opened city despite it already having one (Taronga). People were asking why even more animals should be locked up and why another zoo was needed when the city already had one operating for over 100 years.

The basic answer was profit, there was money to be made for the operator, the city could sustain two zoos. A lot of people in Sydney werent happy about it but it went ahead anyway. Then Dublin Zoo showed up in the story, it came out that they were selling this new zoo in Sydney an elephant. Other zoos worldwide were also selling them animals to stock the new zoo up and all of this under the guise of 'conservation'. The end result was that the elephant had to endure 6 weeks in a tight cage on a ship from Dublin to Australia bouncing around in the oceans. Bear in mind this is a skittish land animal whose feet are extremely sensitive. To me that is unnecessary cruelty to an elephant and I lost all respect for Dublin Zoo after they put that elephant through such a traumatic process all so they could make a few quid and then claim its 'conservation'.

So while I dont think zoos should be banned I think we should be more questioning of them and their practices. They sell the woolly conservation idea but ultimately they are there to make a profit and if that means putting animals through unnecessary stress and trauma then they will do it. Ive no beef with proper conservation programs but in general they are done in the wild well away from the paying eyes zoos depend on.

dorothylives

It never feels right to see animals in cages. I know that zoos are getting less flack for moving towards breeding programmes for endangered animals, but even so, it just doesn't sit right with me. Saving endangered animals, yes, but putting other animals in enclosures to be stared at by people is just wrong imho. Circuses with animals have almost died out, thankfully, as people realised keeping animals in circuses was cruel and wrong. Maybe in time people will feel the same about zoos.

CPTM

I think mankind's perception of freedom is way off the mark. So many think animals are happier in the wild than in a zoo and it's madness. Practically none of us would want to be living in the wild and for good reason. It's hard to imagine what it's like to have a pack of your young, falling asleep knowing that somewhere in the vicinity there is another animal waiting to come and eat them. That's aside from infection, disease, drought, hunger.

If you had any animal in the wild with everything they need beside them including water, food, protection, none of them would roam much further than the confines they have in the zoo. Mistreatment of animals or putting them in horribly small cages etc is obviously wrong but as far as I know that is already banned. A lot of zoos nowadays are paradise in comparison to the realities of the wild that people easily forget.

Bobblehats

I think they should too many animals; in close proxinity. Going stir crazy trapped in their own little own little enclaves, it’s a recipe for disaster whatever about all gods creatures it’s inhumane.

pgj2015

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119215243#Comment_119215243

So wolves would stay in an area the size of quarter of an acre in the wild?

A hippo in a little pool?

magicbastarder

we have two house cats. they don't leave the house, so i'd regard it as somewhat hypocritical if i was to criticise a zoo from doing similar.

and what would be more than somewhat hypocritical (were i to criticise zoos) is that we bought eggs in the supermarket yesterday.

in short, what i'm saying is that being critical of zoos for keeping animals in captivity, should basically lead to an argument in favour of veganism.

Thelonious Monk

They're horrible and I couldn't visit one but in the bigger picture they're not doing much harm I suppose. What should be banned are things like plastic grass, huge pointless manicured lawns outside houses, roundup, and all the other things we are doing in the war on nature. The insect apocalypse is here.

Bobblehats

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119215929#Comment_119215929

Well then how does your garden grow?

Don’t be expectin the council to step in fella ..

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119216159#Comment_119216159

it's a mess, I love it, so do the bees

corner of hells

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119216237#Comment_119216237

Do you know how many species of bees there are in Ireland ? There's 101 types.

I like the little feckers.

I also think we should turn Roscommon or Leitrim into giant zoos , just fence them off and let the animals be.

homer911

You should visit Fota Park, not your typical zoo at all

homer911

I visited London Zoo once and the part I liked the best was the insect house - minimal space needed

cj maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119214143#Comment_119214143

A great listen, ( is it OK to say Thanks you mad Bastard(er) 😀

gameoverdude

I think dublin zoo has made great strides over the decades (apart from those poxy penguins).

Berlin zoo was depressing.

Bobblehats

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119216653#Comment_119216653

Made great strides soiled. If you do bring em to the pets corner, make sure you’re carrying an extra pair

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119216670#Comment_119216670

Lost.

Muahahaha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119215243#Comment_119215243

I think you are anthropomorphising there, you cant proscribe human wants, needs and dislikes on to animals as they have different instincts and drivers to us. For sure they live longer in captivity but it doesnt mean that if they had a choice they would choose a zoo, it is effectively a prison for animals where they cant live their life to the fullest as nature intended.

A cheetah that is born to run at up to 120kph but cannot becasue its in a fenced enclosure of a few hundred square meters is just going to be bored and unfulfilled. Depression in animals in zoos is a real thing, chimpanzees act differently in captivity to those in the wild becasue not being able to go where they want to drives them around the bend. Being thrown together with chimps who are not blood relations also goes completely against how they live in the wild as part of a huge family and hierarchical structure. Its the complete opposite of how the chimps instincts would have them live if they had the choice, it goes against their very nature.

Yes Ban them.

This banning everything is great. What will the do gooders do when all the fun is gone!!

Ban culture ireland 2022 isnt it great!

CPTM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119217883#Comment_119217883

Do you think a cheetah in the wild who is fed, protected and given mating partners by someone would leave the area? Go off for a 120kph jog to see some scenary or have a few nights in the middle of nowhere? I can't see it happening. The only time animals exercise these kinds of things is to find food or water or to protect their own.

Animals can definitely get depressed in zoos. I'm not saying zoos are like a paradise for them, but in comparison to the realities of the wild it's a better option. And before anyone starts talking about crap zoos or monkeys chained to walls, clearly I'm talking about decent zoos run by animal lovers. Do you know most animals in the wild have a fairly horrific death, by pain, thirst or hunger because they're too injured or sick to hunt or protect themselves? I'm just saying most people have a lovely view of what it's like to live in the wild. There is a reason why humans stopped doing it as soon as they could.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119217930#Comment_119217930

Are you a zoologist? Can you quantify this as fact?

CPTM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119217941#Comment_119217941

You don't have to be a mathematician to say that 2 + 2 is 4. This is an internet forum we're on, not some animal convention for professionals.

If you were an elephant, would you rather take your chances on the African plains, with poachers, animals hunting you while you sleep, illnesses,droughts, and no food.. Or would you go to the zoo? To me it's obvious. Zoo everyday of the week.

Obvious best option is the one we have as humans. But imo, Dublin Zoo beats the realities of the wild by far.

Muahahaha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119217930#Comment_119217930

yeah I agree the cheetah would likely not roam if all its needs are met. But thats besides the point, evolution has evolved them into what they are today which is the fasted prey animal in the world. Them not being able to run goes against their most basic instincts and evolution itself. It cant be reversed by a stay in a zoo, even their offspring will have the same instincts as thats how evolution works, their basic instincts are passed through the generations.

And yeah of course all animals in the wild suffer horrific deaths, often as a meal for another animal. Thats not to take away though from all the years they have had following their basic instincts as nature intended.

I get your point about a zoo giving them shelter and 3 meals a day but that in itself goes against their natural instincts to hunt just as evolution has designed them to. A human in a prison gets shelter and 3 meals a day but not many would actually choose it despite some of their basic needs being met.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119217915#Comment_119217915

I’m inclined to agree, improving them might be an option, but no.. “ we don’t like it, ban it “.

cnocbui

No.

CPTM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119218029#Comment_119218029

I would choose prison over living unassisted in the wild mountains with animals wanting to eat me all day long and me having to hunt for myself. Wouldn't you? I suppose I just think that the likes of David Attenborough and the BBC did a great job at making the animal kingdom look like this lovely place that Elton John could sing about all day. When the reality is that in order for anything to live, something must die, and that's aside from all the other trials and tribulations which exist like illnesses etc that I already mentioned.

Not saying that zoos are the best thing in the world but I do think they're a better option than a lot of people think, and freedom is not all its hyped up to be.

Ill take the point made on instincts which have evolved to this point. But I'd argue that they'd soon melt away if they had a friendly zookeeper looking after them and their family day and night. But that's just an opinion.

anewme

All Zoo's are not the same. Many Zoo's should certainly be banned. Google "animals starving in Zoo's " and you will get your answer.

Anyone who has been to Thailand or Asia in general would certainly agree that zoos there should be banned. They are horrible places. The Elephant Resues are not Elephant Rescues but for profit organisations. Not all, but the majority.

As are the "roadside Zoos" in USA. Cruel places where wild animals rot.

Lots of support after the documentary for "The Tiger King" cause Carol Baskin was mad, but he was also mad and an animal abuser.

Read the stories about the many zoos where animals have been left to starve to death and then consider the question.

I think we are lucky with Dublin Zoo. I also visited Sydney Zoo, and I found it similar to Dublin and people cared about the animals. I am sure there are many other Zoos in this bracket.

As for Seaworld and Loro Park. Should have been shut down 30 years ago. No place in Society.

policarp

Many people keep dogs,cats,rabbits,tortoises,budgies,ferrets.chickens.horses, etc.

Mini zoos.

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119218214#Comment_119218214

Bollox.

Muahahaha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119218091#Comment_119218091

Yeah but as a human you can live unassisted but that doesnt mean you have to live wild in the mountains. We did live the caves once but we're a long way from that now. Wild animals are evolutionararily designed to live in harsh environments, that means over millions of year everything about their physiology has adapted to the environments they live in. I mean some animals live their entire lives on snow and ice in freezing temperatures which seems like sh1t to us but they are literally designed for it. And even when it is ridicuulouslyt cold they adpat to that too like pengiuns huddling together for heat or an artic fox knowing tunneling into the snow will keep him warm.

I'll try to frame it another way, consider a salmon which has only two fundamental basic instincts, which is to eat and to procreate. So place one salmon in a 1 metre long fish tank, feed it 3 times a day and let it procreate at the end of its 5 year lifespan. The other salmon in the wild is born in a river in Ireland and literally travels thousands of miles across the Atlantic ocean for and feeding to aduthood. Then it gets pregnant and heads back to the very the point on the same river in Ireland on which it was born. Which salmon has fulfilled its basic instincts, the one swimming up and down a 1 metre tank and being fed and sheltered by a human or the one that has done it all by itself in the wild? Its basic instincts are not taught to them by their parents, its imprinted on its brain and it just goes and does it. And while its swimming thousands of miles to feed and breed that is exactly what the salmon in the 1 metre tank would do if it was allowed to, it would fulfill its basic instincts for itself just like the wild salmon did.

Another point is that animals, unlike ourselves, are not really aware of their own mortality. We cant go a day in our lives without hearing and fearing death, be it a murder somewhere, a war another place, people dying in a bad car crash or people we know getting cancer or other terminal illness. Animals have no such worries or realisation of their own mortality. They sense danger for sure and then their fight or flight instinct kicks in but theyre not going around day to day thinking id rather be in a zoo so I can be safer because they are not really aware of their own mortality to begin with like we are. When they die they die but unlike ourselves they are not thinking about death for years or even decades before it happens, for them it just happens in the moment. So whilst a wild animal wont live as many years as one in captivity it wont really matter to either of them because neither was aware of their mortality in the first place.

pgj2015

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119217930#Comment_119217930

Ok, so which would you pick? living in a mansion with a small garden, your food is dropped to you by drone, you dont get any visitors you can never leave the mansion though.

Or you live in a crap apartment in a rough area on low wages, you can leave any time you want, to go for a jog, go to the cinema, work, go to a football game, go on a date etc anything.

what one will you pick?

Feisar

Yes.

Donald Trump

Is Zoo magazine still on the go?

Zoos have their place in some ways... Conservation and stuff. And some animals do fine in them I suppose. Like I don't know maybe peacocks and some smaller primates or whatever. But I don't really like them overall.

Animals do enjoy life on easy mode though that's for sure. I've been to Bukit Lawang and the orangutans are more than happy to stick around. That's an animal sanctuary rather than a zoo though and it requires trekking to really see them.

Shoog

Zoos started as entertainment and now they are admission of our failure to protect native environments.

They should be banned and conservation should be moved to where it counts - the native environments.

magicbastarder

in your post, you've pointed out that we have failed to protect those environments though?

Count Dracula

That Silverback Gorilla totally hates me, like big time. Always Lunges headfirst into the reinforced glass , he really wants to bate the shight out of me I reckon. If he gets out of there we are all screwed. I can just imagine him grabbing the nearest toddler and riding rooftop on the red line Luas, before ascending Liberty Hall, King Kong style.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119218063#Comment_119218063

Sure theres another Thread on banning the isle of mann TT.

Ban culture sickens me usually incepted by people with no knowledge of what it is they are banning

Just spouting some liberal health and safety or welfare bull crap.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119214204#Comment_119214204

And the total nut cases.

Muahahaha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119218487#Comment_119218487

Ive been to Bukit Lawang in Indonesia as well and the orangutans there have loads of space to move around and climb up 40 metre high trees in the jungle and swing between them all they want. The keeper explained that they are mainly rehabilitated and orphaned organutans who wouldnt be able to live properly in the wild. They stick around becasue they know every day the keepers will bring them kilos and kilos of free bananas but if they want they are free to go deeper into the jungle and fend for themselves. Its a happy medium as they get fed but they also get to live in a semi wild where their predators are controlled. So they will live long and happy lives but they are free to leave the area if they want.

Compare that to Dublin Zoo or similar where its not uncommon to see orangutans thumping the glass walls they are kept behind in such a tiny area compared to how far they would travel in the wild. There is no doubt in my mind that zoo bound orangutans are frustrated to fcuk. There'll be a few trees in their enclosure for them to climb but its really nothing compared to them travelling kilometres by swinging from tree to tree through a jungle.

Having seen them in the semi wild at Bukit Lawang the environment they are in in zoos worldwide really doesnt sit well with me. If zoos are really about conservation of a species and the best interests of an orangutan they should be moving them to semi wild environments like Bukit Lawang where they are in a jungle which is their natural environment and the climate suits them as well. But of course that wouldnt make the zoo any money which is basically the root problem, they're private companies who exist to make a profit. They can dress it up as conservation all they want but ultimately they are not making decisions based on the best interests of the animals they own.

magicbastarder

But of course that wouldnt make the zoo any money which is basically the root problem, they're private companies who exist to make a profit.

FWIW dublin zoo is operated as a charity.

cj maxx

Everyone should listen to the podcast above . The make a very depressing point. There is NO wild anymore. Humans have destroyed their natural habitat . . A lot of animals would be extinct by now

MyLove4Satan

During a famine or social breakdown an abundant source of nutrition for urban dwellers. They must stay.