Right to a house?

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119239944#Comment_119239944

ah now, i wouldnt go that far, in regards describing the plutocratic classes, i.e. the primary owners of assets!

Bit cynical

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119240479#Comment_119240479

I'm not actually against small-time amateur landlords just as I'm not against home ownership. The problem is the rental market dominated by small landlords. It means that you can't bring in regulations that would allow ten or twenty year rentals with a degree of security as is common in some other countries. For example, a small landlord will always be able to evict on the basis of a close relative moving in. A small landlord will also tend to evict if he wants to sell. Nothing wrong with either of these but it is not conducive to long-term secure renting.

asdfg87

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119239944#Comment_119239944

Who do you think are the wimps?

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119240606#Comment_119240606

You could look at it the other way. Small landlords provided the rental market in it's entirety and now are being shafted by the way they are being treat to the preference of big investment. They aren't dominant they were the market with ever increasing tax and regulation.

A small landlord maybe legally allowed to evict somebody but have little to no legal support to do it with it take years to get a person out. Anybody or company evict tenants when selling due to the laws here.

The public are complaining about the big investment companies while also wanting small landlords to have ever increasing costs and liabilities. They even wanted to make certain landlord actions criminal offenses while a tenant could rip a place apart and able to walk away.

There needs to be a proper balance of rights and responsibilities and at present it is skewed in favour of tenants. Small landlords should not be responsible financially for failed government policy but that is how it is. The public also like this

Bit cynical

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119242446#Comment_119242446

It is true that a company can evict tenants when selling, however when selling a block of apartments to another company the general practice is to sell with tenants in situ. This saves the other company from having to find tenants and also how tenants can rent the same place for years while ownership changes hands several times. Another benefit to the tenant is that the company won't have an immediate relative requiring accommodation.

I agree that landlords (professional or otherwise) should have an easier time evicting tenants who don't pay or who damage the property but this is an issue that can be addressed separately.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119242645#Comment_119242645

I don't know where you got the idea they usual sell with tenants because that is the rarity not standard practice for all sales including apartment blocks. The law was changed to stop it above a certain size but they are rarely sold in the first place so it is very small comfort for a very small amount of people.

As evictions and destruction are a huge cost risk to landlords it needs to be addressed at the same time as everything else if cheaper rent is desired. Nothing happens in a vacuum and holistic approach needed to be fair to all and not based on public opinion as done now. Landlords are leaving the market and rental properties drop due to current policies

Bit cynical

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119242789#Comment_119242789

But that's because large scale ownership is still comparatively rare. If a company is selling a tenanted apartment building to another company, there's not much benefit to evicting all the tenants. I can see why there might be if a small landlord is selling an apartment. He want's to include owner occupiers in the bids, but this does not apply to a company selling a block.

On your other point, I've already agreed that it should not be difficult to remove non-paying or damaging tenants.

growleaves

@Ray Palmer 'The public are complaining about the big investment companies while also wanting small landlords to have ever increasing costs and liabilities. They even wanted to make certain landlord actions criminal offenses while a tenant could rip a place apart and able to walk away.'

No the public don't want that. FF/FG brought in disadvantages for small landlords via legislation and people like yourself don't want to blame them, because you voted for them and don't want to admit that you got played, so you have to pin the blame somewhere else: tenants, 'the public', Sinn Fein, NGOs, the tooth fairy etc., etc.

'The public also like this'

Not at all. Most people hold down jobs, pay taxes, pay rent, and hate the kind of people who wrecks properties and overstay leases.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119242866#Comment_119242866

Its all very well to agree with changes to support LL. However and changes in Legislation are all stick based.

A vacancy tax will not work IMO as it will not apply to 70% plus of property and people will find ways to avoid it. There is no such thing as a market rent.

If you want people who have control of single vacant houses, whether it belong to a parent who moved in with children or is in a nursing home, then it all about giving these people the confidence to rent such a house.

Bit cynical

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119247999#Comment_119247999

I think you may be responding to a different post. I don't think I made reference to a vacancy tax in that post although I did discuss it in another thread a while back.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119247945#Comment_119247945

I didn't vote FF/FG. You would want to have willingly ignored people on this thread who want landlords to pay more taxes and have greater punishment. SF are very clear they want landlords to have more restrictions. The general public want cheaper rent and want landlords to make less profit. If you think they care about landlord rights you are hearing voices in your head.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119255717#Comment_119255717

It seems that 30% of houses for sale in Dublin at present are from smaller LL. This is especially interesting as it seem even with high rents available in Dublin small LL with 1-2 properties are racing through the exit.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119255829#Comment_119255829

Yes because they scared about what will happen next from the government and if SF they seem to want to take away rights from landlords. It is a scary time to be a landlord. This is reducing the amount of rentals on the market and lowering occupancy rates. Once a house is sold from rental less people live in the properties. It is one of the worst outcomes that could happen in the current market

Nidge20131

What I find hard to understand is why in the past we regarded a home a right to people, including those who dont work and yet today working people, on decent incomes, are seen as having no right to a home and expected to house share or live in the family home

Its also really unfair that council tenants paying little have so many more rights and protections than private renting who work and pay a lot more

Greyfox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119255860#Comment_119255860

Anybody who says it's a scary time to be a landlord is living in a world that's a million miles from reality.

Taylor365

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119277320#Comment_119277320

I'd rather invest in some cacti and jump head first into them than invest in the irish property market.

Both investments share similar pain.

riclad

If you look at the tax situation Re small landlords it's ridiculous, they pay about 50 per cent tax, if they want to evict a tenant it takes 12 months, go to court, pay a solicitor, its standard practice to leave tenants in place, if a company sells a building,

the Banning of bedsits was a bad idea, it forced many landlords to sell up. Rather than install new bathrooms in each rental unit

After 2008 the government was happy to have vulture fund buy up houses which had fallen in value by 50 per cent there has to be a balance of rights in tenants versus landlord

People are complaining about young people trying to compete with big company's when they are bidding to buy a house

This is not russia most houses are owned by the people who live in them or company's or the local authority we have a high rate of private home ownership compared with other country's

Landlords do get a tax credit 100 per cent for repairs and they also have insurance

y0ssar1an22

a right to a house?

not sure that exists. but if it does, sign me up! what do i need to avail of 1?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119277320#Comment_119277320

Anyone who doesn’t understand why anybody says that, is further away.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119278790#Comment_119278790

What you say about tax relief on repairs is not completely true. It is if you repair like for like, however this is not always possible. For instance if you replace timber windows or doors with PVC( it nearly impossible to get timber window and doors now) you are supposed to only use the value of the wooden ones against tax and add the remainders to the capital value of the house.

Just to give you an idea of the potential loss to a LL if a tenant refuses to vacate and stops paying rent.

On average it seems to take 12 months to get them out of the house using the RTB and legal process.

On average outside of Dublin a three bed house would make around 1500/ month. That 18k in lost rent. Tenants that carry out this action are much more likely to damage the house and leave rubbish behind. It will probably take a month to clean repair and relet the house another month rent gone.

I had to clean out a house nearly three years ago it a small two bed. I took a cattle box of rubbish to the dump that cost 60 euro. It took me and my son a day to clean it out.

Afterwards I had to paint it as walls were all marked and one bed room was bad with mould it seems the tenants were living in this room for most of the day. It took me three days with a local lad. He cost three hundred euro. The paint and other materials for repairs cost 200 euro. Two different painter's quoted me over 1200 to paint the house. If you had to pay labour to clean and repair a house you could allow for 2-3 K

So the total loss would be in the region of 25k. That time with me the tenant left at the end of the notice period. However between lost rent and repairs I was back about 2-3 k.

Gant21

The renting game is no purse of cash, I’ve wore the shirt.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119277320#Comment_119277320

Anybody who doesn't understand that different people have different risks/outcomes and only sees their own circumstances is removed from reality. You should be concerned because it effects you when less and less rentals are about. The same way landlords should be concerned when tenants don't earn enough to rent and live

Greyfox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119278860#Comment_119278860

Wrong, I understand why a LL might say it but it still doesn't make it true. investing in property and becoming a LL is still one of the best investments you can make in Ireland. Yes theirs some risk but thats to be expected.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119290116#Comment_119290116

You are further away in your understanding then that proverbial million miles, LLs know and accept that it is a good investment and that there is always a risk of losing money on their investment. That is not the part that has LLs spooked and exiting the sector.

Taylor365

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119290116#Comment_119290116

So you are saying you don't know much about investing as a whole.....

Greyfox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119290228#Comment_119290228

It doesn't change the fact that saying been a LL is scary is an exaggeration

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119290902#Comment_119290902

Depends on whether you understand the impact of current and proposed legislation on your investment. I have my doubts.

Greyfox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119290490#Comment_119290490

I know plenty, it's an obvious fact that been a LL in Ireland is a good investment if you have the money, just look at how much houses have risen in value over the last decade.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119290116#Comment_119290116

Exactly.

If you're a landlord in Ireland and not making money hand over fist that's all on you.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119290902#Comment_119290902

For any person managing 1-2 properties which are valued 250 k or over it fairly scary. It all depends on where you are at it rent and property value wise. If you have a property in an RPZ where tenants are in it 5 years plus and you did not raise the rent in the intervening period you are looking at a 10-13% rent increase maximum.

No investor will buy such a property so at present it probably better off to sell it off if the rental return is 5% or less. Dealing with the RTB is a pain. If you end up with HAP tenants you could have to put serious investment into a house. An electric cert is probably 5-700 euro alone before you factor in repairs. A couple of new smoke alarms, carbon monoxide alarm, replacing, fan heaters, extractor fans, cooker hoods and shower switches. Because you have GAP tenants some insurance companies charge you extra.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119290951#Comment_119290951

A million miles may have been an underestimate.

Again, LLs are not leaving the sector at a time when rents are at historical highs because they think it isn’t a good investment. If you don’t understand why that is considering it has been widely reported on, I can’t help you.

Greyfox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119290969#Comment_119290969

LL's leaving the market is bad for renters but for the majority of LL's the house is worth more than what they paid for it, hardly a scary situation. My own LL knows all about tax and regulations and the risks of bad tenants but he also knows making money is not supposed to be easy.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119291093#Comment_119291093

Again a miss statement. In general rental houses do not climb with the market as they tend to be in poorer condition that family homes. There was a cohort of LL who bought from 2004-10 who may be just about back to market values now.

LL with 5+ properties are often virtually full-time LL. These guys will be more focused on it as a business.However the smaller providers with 1-2 properties are exiting the market. But what is more frightening is the amount of properties that people are unwilling to rent. Even though government have changed legislation to allow for more of the rental income to be held onto, people with family in nursing homes are unwilling to rent those properties. It the same with people gone to live with family members. With the strongest rental prices ever people are unwilling to take tenants into these properties.

1/3 of the houses for sale in the last few months are LL exiting the market. It never easy to make money, but when the risk V reward increases substantially then you get investors leaving a market.

Try to stop BSing with blase assumptions. You know f@@k all about the risk or the market. Everything is great until it goes wrong. And then you have a 10-20k loss to sort out

If you are depending on that as part of your pension or income when you cannot make market returns or get back into that space, it makes more sense to cash in the investment.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119255717#Comment_119255717

As is, there are too many reasons not to be a landlord.

What SF are looking for as a more regulated sector but that is largely corporate dominated.

riclad

As long as you pay the rent every week , you can stay in a council flat, even if you earn 70k salary, my friend lived in a 3 bed house with her mother, she was still given a council flat 10 years ago. As she is on disability lowance. Single mothers are living in hotels with kids as theres not many houses left, that were not sold in 2000. I don't think anyone says you have a right to a house, it's more like you go on housing list , if your income is less than 30k you may get offered housing

The systems sort of worked before local authority's decided to sell most of the houses they rented out

And if course we are facing rising inflation, even with free land it costs 340k plus to build a council house they are usually 2 or 3 bed units

They are built to a high standard of sound proofing and energy rating insulation

If someone buys a house for 200k they'll have to charge a very high rent to cover the mortgage and pay tax , no one seems to like landlords but we need em in a modern economy it's not likely someone bloke working in Tesco will be able to buy a house unless it's in the middle of nowhere

Hotels in Spain are offering workers free rooms accommodation just to attract staff no experience needed they get 6 hours training and learn on the job

riclad

Landlords get old when they reach a certain age its easier to sell up than to deal with tenants bureaucracy tax revenue etc

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119291453#Comment_119291453

Incorrect again. If you are a long time LL, it better to hold especially if you have a family. You will pay 33% on any capita gain and ten years later your Children may have to pay inheritance tax.

It generally makes more sense to hold. However if your rent is way under market value it may make more sense to sell.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119290902#Comment_119290902

Considering that was never said the issue is your understanding. I said landlords are scared and you can't see the difference in those statements it is certainly a you problem. You could own a great car and a group of people could hate that that car and start smashing them up if they see them. It isn't scary to own the car but you can be scared somebody will come and smash it up.

Essentially you are the one exaggerating what was said not that it was an exaggerated statement. If landlords aren't scared why are they leaving the market and saying they are scared of what will be brought in?

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119291312#Comment_119291312

So SF are trying to get foreign companies to come in and buy up our country while punishing people who provided a needed service for decades! Got it. They some how think taking rights away from Irish people in favour of foreign investment is the ideals they stand for.

Greyfox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119291908#Comment_119291908

Most LL's are making a good profit, what's scary to some is simply the cost of doing business to other LL's.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119294790#Comment_119294790

Are you deliberately missing the point?

What you term “the cost of doing business” is driving a significant number of LLs out of the sector at a time when rents are at historical highs, that is atypical of investment strategy. Why do you think LLs are doing that? It is not like the reasons haven’t been reported on numerous times, chief among them, fear of the implications of both enacted and proposed legislation which means that investors effectively lose control of their investment if the tenant stops paying rent/refuses to leave, preventing the sale of the investment. If SF do get into Government, they propose removing the right to terminate a tenancy when the LL wants to sell their investment. That is a scary prospect for any small investor, which the owners of 85% of all rental accommodation are.

Taylor365

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119294790#Comment_119294790

Really? So tell us how much most landlords are making?

Greyfox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119295277#Comment_119295277

So your going to pretend been a LL is currently not a good way to make money? Your post is childish

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119295753#Comment_119295753

The last time I seen something like this posted I asked for numbers to back it up, needless to say the person came up with some numbers, when I pointed out about a mortgage on house then more numbers came. Then when I pointed out that rent is not tax free teh numbers stopped coming and it went very quiet

If been a LL was so easy why have so many got rid of it and even more have gone to AirBnB etc to get rid of it?

Wouldn’t be calling anyone childish online

asdfg87

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/collapse-in-home-ownership-to-create-higher-rates-of-poverty-in-retirement-study-finds-1330525.html?utm_campaign=article&utm_source=email&utm_medium=web?utm_source

This is a disgrace and nobody wants to know.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119296639#Comment_119296639

People know, and have 30-40 yrs to do something about it.

asdfg87

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119296721#Comment_119296721

Have you any suggestions? its going to take 40 years to fix something that happened in less than 10. Houses were cheap 10 years ago after the crash.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119296736#Comment_119296736

What have people done in the past if they couldn’t afford to buy/build where they wanted?

asdfg87

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119296752#Comment_119296752

Read the article this has not happened before.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119296789#Comment_119296789

You are evading the question, in the past, what have people done if they couldn’t afford to buy where they wanted?