Star trek voyager reappraisal

Bobtheman

Im rewatching some episodes and enjoying them.

I think stand alone episode wise it matches a lot of Trek. It's as good as anything. It's many criticisms stand. Most of its characters never developed. Static.

Many were quite boring or silly - Harry kim and Neelix in particular.

The maquis vs starfleet conflict was never fully let rip.

It should have developed stronger narrative arcs particularly in the last two seasons.

But we forget that most tv in the 1990s was not narrative and most trek are stand alone episodes and I think in a lot of cases they stack up to the next generation or even DS9

AMKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058250909/star-trek-voyager-reappraisal

But we forget that most tv in the 1990s was not narrative and most trek are stand alone episodes and I think in a lot of cases they stack up to the next generation or even DS9

 I think what happened was they done episodes and whole seasons in DS9 where a story ark went for a whole season or more and where the characters were developed for the whole show but maybe it was just not as succesful as they had hoped so they decided to go back to the old formula which for Voyager was a pity. They should have stuck with the formula they used on DS9 for Voyager but instead it was a ship 70thosand light years from home and away from the Federation. It could have worked great but instead they just went with mostly episodic episodes which is great for rewatches if you get a good episode not so great if its a crap episode.

Bobtheman

I think you got it slightly wrong. DS9 didn't start to get really narrative until season 4 or 5 when they brought in the dominion story line.

It's not so much story arcs as the failure of voyager to develop most characters.

Janeway and chakotay hardly changed

Plus it was a ship without any federation support but it miraculously repaired itself week after week.

The year of hell pointed to directions it could have developed but didn't.

Rawr

Voyager at the time really felt like the plots were mostly re-heats of leftover TNG ideas, and in a handful of cases straight up Copy/Pastes of TNG plots. Very much "TNG...but in an unknown part of space so we can Boldly Go, just like in TOS".

I remember being very harsh on Voyager back in the day and disliked a lot of it. I was annoyed by the Maquis element, annoyed by Janeway as the Captain, annoyed by Neelix and just generally annoyed by a show that was away from the Alpha Quadrant. It was around about this time I had finally started to get around to DS9. When TNG finished, DS9 began to fill it's shoes to depict the current situation in the Federation. The Gamma Quadrant & Bajor became less and less of a thing, and politics around the various Alpha Quadrant powers became the show's focus. An excellent Season 3 was followed by The Way of the Warrior with a Season 4 that just cemented DS9 as my preferred Trek.

While this was going on, Voyager was into it's second season, messing about with Kazon still and although I'd watch it wouldn't get the same attention I had given DS9. After First Contact and prospect of the Borg got me interested with Voyager by the end of Season 3. At the same time The Dominion War was about to heat up on DS9, making the next few years appear pretty golden Trek-wise. Alas, I had grown to really hate Seven during my first watch of her seasons and felt that her anecdotes about her time in the collective were lazily done and served as a sort of crutch that the writers leaned onto. Re watches made me realize that this performance was pretty well done, and that although they could have done a better job with Seven's development arc, it wasn't that bad.

When DS9 ended, we still had 2 more years of Voyager. Season 5 that year had been very strong and rewatches lately have made this one of my favorite Voyager seasons. Alas, as the only Trek show left Voyager didn't seem to have much steam left. It was about now that we got Fair Haven (TWICE) some very silly Borg Queen nonsense and lets not forget to do whole episodes in Paris' Flash Gordon rip off. I recently watched a Season 7 episode where the ship was fractured into different time periods and I think it approached Fair Haven levels of bad...they really seemed to have given up by then. Mostly running the clock out I guess until they could pack down and setup for Enterprise.

The finale was alright, but felt like a sorely missed opportunity.

Rewatches of Voyager make for ok viewing. There are whole chunks of seasons I'll skip but these days I'll marathon most of it. Given the quality of some more recent Trek I can at least appriacte the attempt they made. Some effort was put in, to re-energise a franchise that needed a bit of a boost and I think they nearly did it. Voyager was no DS9, but it was still a good bit of Trek.

Bobtheman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119225963#Comment_119225963

I can't fault anything you wrote. They should have gone narrative the last two seasons of voyager.

Chakotay and 7 should have been developed earlier. Robert beltrain complained about his lack of development and wanted to be fired. He asked for more money in the hope of getting sacked but they gave it to him. Though I don't think he was that great an actor.

The same for the character of Harry kim. Terrible actor and terrible character development.

I personally hated neelix with a vengeance.

~Rebel~

They could have done with more serialised arcs alright, particularly in latter seasons, to match the approach DS9 had taken. But have to say I enjoyed the rewatch I did at the start of Covid (though admittedly I did skip some of the worse filler episodes). I also think I'm in the minority in that I really liked Janeway as captain.

The Mighty Quinn

I liked Janeway as a captain, but her character was inconsistent in temperament.

Neelix was woeful and should have been a one episode character, and the relationship he had with Kes, oh god it was just terrible TV. Kes was another crap character.

Tuvok was no Spock, but he was okay.

Seven of Nine was a missed opportunity, the schtick went on a bit too long without much development.

Overall I did like the watch, but it was no DS9.

Strangely I like and view The Orville as the most recent incarnation of Trek moreso than Discovery.

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119226661#Comment_119226661

I mean, there's always 'Lost In Space'... the Netflix remake is decent enough. Though admittedly the first season is more 'ground based', presumably to help the budget. But it still works well enough to be worth a watch, and picks up as it goes.

Rawr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119226671#Comment_119226671

Although I wasn't fan of her initially, Janeway did grow on me. Thanks to Burnham I can at least now say that compared to her, Janeway was at least clearly a Starfleet Captain from day one and on rewatching I have warmed up to her style of captaincy. She inconsistent as hell though, with her being flexible with the rules one day, to her trying to torture Equinox crewmembers for daring to break any rules the next day. Other fleet captains were a little more predictable in this respect.

Neelix pissed me off and Kes was wierdly pointless. I even noticed a couple of episodes where they had to invent reasons for Kes to be there to give her an obligatory line of dialog, such as serving coffee in the mess hall.

Tuvok was an early favourite. I really liked the concept of this shows "Worf" being a Vulcan. Vulcan Security chief was interesting take on the role, and I think it lasted well in the show.

One other annoying turn was Torres. I never liked her, at all. I was also put off by them yet again going for a half-Klingon woman in a Trek story. They really should have made her full Klingon I feel, or even some other race we never covered as much. Just something concrete, because I feel they never really did the half-Klingon story too much justice and when it did come up it was just annoying.

Kim was bit of a non-entity too, development-wise. By about Season 5 I had noticed that it had become his job to blurt out the word "Sex!" whenever the writers felt like it. Not sure why that suddenly happened, but it appeared to be his job in those later seasons.

AMKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119226671#Comment_119226671

Eh Lower Decks and Strange New Worlds are the most recent incarnations of Star Trek.

I have no idea what that other show is you talk about.

TheIrishGrover

I never liked Janeway as a character. Probably down to Mulgrew's incredibly annoying nasal voice. I thought its BRRB (Big Red Reset Button) nature was a very backward step. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with episodic series (Although I PREFER stories with an arc) - Strange New Worlds is the best thing since DS9!!! (IMHO). But there was no jeopardy due to the BRRB. Ironically there is more in Strange New Worlds than there was in Voyager. And you know exactly what is going to happen to at least 5 of the characters.

They had a chance to do something very different but got cold feet after DS9. While Ds9 was embraced in Europe from the start (Certainly from season 2) it never really got the love in the US until years later. And this was probably perceived to be because of the serialised nature of the show (It also makes it harder to syndicate as syndication tends to rely on standalone episodes that are easier to dip in-and-out of)

So, for me, Voyager was the poorest series. The villains were weak: The Kazon? Really?; The Hirogen started strong and were then immediately gutted; The ones with the Phage. Annoying and unlikeable (You have to like/appreciate a good villain)..... Then they go and gut the Borg. Week after week after week.

The characters were beyond bland and played blandly.

I have seen episodes on repeats and its structure has dated so badly.

The Mighty Quinn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119227735#Comment_119227735

It's not Star Trek at all, its a trek rip by Seth McFarlane which has a very TNG/TOS feel

AMKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119228068#Comment_119228068

I know what "The Orville" is I like that it's the other show that you mention at the end of your post that I was on about and I unfortunately I know what that rubbish show is too but to me it does not exist. It has added nothing to the Star Trek Universe so it can dissappear into the T.V fault of forgotten shows as far as I am concerned. In fact The Orville has contributed more to Star Trek than that other show.

The Mighty Quinn

Aha! Whoosh, missed that completely.

Yeah that's the point I was making, the orville is better star trek than an actual star trek series, i.e., Disco

Bobtheman

The orvile is just reheated STNG

Bobtheman

They certainly tried and are trying to milk the trek well dry.

They should just run a series at a time.

We could have done without most of them post STNG.

After that DS9 was pretty much the only fully decent one up to Strange new worlds

Sure Voyager and Enterprise had good stand alone episodes but they added little to the overall franchise.

Discovery had good seasons. The first one and when Pike was captain but after that it went down hill

AMKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119228704#Comment_119228704

Your joking right. They are 4 seasons in and we barely know the characters I'm it. Its rubbish. The less said about it the better.

Bobtheman

Im not joking. I liked the first season and the one with Pike in it. Without discovery there would be no strange new worlds.

It's not all bad. It just failed to develop most characters and went way too narrative. The last season was the worst. It just seemed like an extended star trek the motion picture.

However I'm done with it and Picard. As I hit my late 50s and people suddenly die on me-I realise life is too short for watching ****.

McFly85

Voyager may as well have been set in an area of the alpha quadrant that hadn’t been explored.

Literally every setup of the premise was thrown out straight away. Maquis lose their ship and immediately become a Starfleet crew, Ship lost in an uncharted area of space but immediately get Neelix who handily has detailed knowledge of the deta quadrant, so off they go.

It had a likeable crew for the most part and some good standout episodes but didn’t have any real reason for being.

Its the kind of premise that would work far better now that they wouldn’t have to worry so much about people missing episodes so they could have some sort of continuity in changes to the ship and crew.

Bobtheman

I think you are right. People are now tiring of narratives that mean you can't miss an episode.

The crew were too likeable. And rarely changed.

They should have thrown out neelix in the airlock

The Mighty Quinn

Too likeable?

Insufferable Neelix, pointless Kes, bland Kim, vanilla Chakotay, Seven..

Yeah seven was sex in a suit but she wasn't a likeable character, way too wooden (or robotic if you will! I know I know, she was assimilated.. Blah blah, but she was still tedious)

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119271298#Comment_119271298

Seven, the Doctor, and Janeway were so far above everyone else in acting ability that if they weren't involved in a scene, that scene was effectively empty.

Jeri Ryan was done a bit of a disservice by them pushing her hotness factor a bit too much, but even with that, she made dialogue and scenes work really well that had no right to.

Bobtheman

Yeah pushing her into a cat suit was simply playing to The T and A factor. It took away from her acting all right.

I think she collapsed shortly after wearing the suit for the first time.

Too tight.

She did play a significant role in the rise of Obama. If her divorce papers had not been opened her ex husband might have beaten Obama to the senate.

Darth Melkor

Voyager was my least favourite at the time, it was ok and my wife enjoyed it and she wouldn't even watch a minute of TOS or DS9. I despised Enterprise but over the last few years appreciate it slightly more though i could never class myself as a fan. Occasionally rewatch watch Voyager episodes when I come across them and they're mostly enjoyable enough..Good idea about firing Neelix out the airlock maybe á la BSG style.

I watched the first season of Discovery and while a few aspects of the show had merit I thought that overall it was shite and I've given up with Star Trek, haven't bothered with Picard and don't get me started on those absolute bollox JJ Abrams films.

Bobtheman

Ah the first reboot film is good but to each it's oxn

Strange new worlds is worth a look

Darth Melkor

Thanks. I'll check out Strange New Worlds. Initially I thought you were talking about that animated series that looks like Star Wars Rebels but then had a quick Google. It does look interesting with Pike, Nurse Chapel et al.

Greyjoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119268791#Comment_119268791

Voyager had so many long-term narrative ideas baked into its original premise as you describe of the two crews sharing the ship, far from home/help with dwindling resources. You can feel the 'tug of war' over the series between the writers trying to introduce ongoing ideas and the produces like Rick Berman et al wanting plain vanilla episodic Trek. I still think they could have 'threaded the needle' a bit better between the two styles and tell weekly stories but show the ship / crew changing over the course of the show.

McFly85

The Ron Moore interview about voyager sums it up for me - it’s long but as a trek fan I think it’s fascinating.

https://www.lcarscom.net/rdm1000118/

I recently watched Life on Mars and thats pretty much what I think Voyager should have been. A person taken out of their structured environment and put in a completely alien environment that has such an impact on them that they’re a different person by the end of it. But with Berman wanting the show to remain firmly Trek it was always going to be difficult to do.

I wonder if it would have worked better as a show if it’s premise was the first deep space mission through the wormhole and into the gamma quadrant. You could still have all of the new aliens and explore an area untouched by Starfleet but without having to deal with ideas that they weren’t interested in exploring anyway.