Science Supports Trans People - Here is why

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119273875#Comment_119273875

Value judgement is not appropriate in this circumstance. Exactly the same argument were and still are been used to oppress gay youths.

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119273887#Comment_119273887

Again disingenuous.

I'm a father. I look after my kids.

We also talk a lot about most things. But I will never force anything down their throat.

I think if you do it speaks more of yourself. Quite frankly, cowardly.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119273905#Comment_119273905

.. you assume I would force anything down their throats. That would be a very wrong assumption.

it is my base principle of parenting to give my children enough information for them to make their own informed decision appropriate to their age. That means all subjects.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119273848#Comment_119273848

Yes. Yes.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119273905#Comment_119273905

That makes no sense. The post you replied to you is absolutely nothing to do with forcing anything.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119273491#Comment_119273491

Whereas you seem to see no hypocrisy in your claims, considering that you want to impose your values and boundaries on other people... all in the name of an extreme minority. (Really miss the decent rolleyes emoticon in this situations). You are amazingly blatant in how you express your expectation for double standards that suit your own agenda.

And thank you for your permission that I may have an opinion.. Oddly enough, throughout this topic I have voiced my opinion. I have not assumed any position of authority, in spite of your suggestions that I'm imposing my views on anyone. Funny that.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119273553#Comment_119273553

If you consider that to be an essay, I'd hate to think of what you consider actual essays to be like. You really can't read through fast? Considering how much time everyone spends time online, I think you're simply trying to avoid dealing with what was written.

Which is fine. You didn't address my previous points. I don't expect you to address these last ones either.

As for the 2/3 remark.. right back at you.. but then I doubt you consider applying your standards for others to yourself.

No problem with leaving this here.

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119273914#Comment_119273914

Again I agree with education.

Are you comfortable with hrt therapy for pre pubescent children?

briangriffin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119273805#Comment_119273805

The science of the male and female brain?

Where there are 3 or 4 in a group of friends coming out as trans, do you think it's possible that social contagion is happening (youtube, reddit, tiktok,snapchat) and how would you treat all children would all be given puberty blockers? Do you think circumstance or geography should dictate whether elective mastectomies are carried out on perfectly healthy girls?

How can child A a girl who likes playing with boys and having short hair and really feels like she's a boy and wants to be a boy more than anything at age 6. She persists because once an idea is introduced obsessed over and affirmed it takes root and its affirmed by the local trans charity, GP and parents who don't know what to do but listen to the experts? So she's told she is a girl born in a boys body and now the adults in the room have created a self fulfilling prophecy where a child's brain is in the wrong body and they need to change the body to match the brain or the hormones as you referred to.

Versus child B a girl who likes playing with boys and having short hair and really feels like she's a boy more than anything at age 6. She also obsessed over it but is not affirmed is not told she was born in the wrong body, gender or identity or trans are not mentioned to her instead she is told its OK to play with boys to want short hair to live an authentic life just how she is because you know they are just children, innocent and completely unable to comprehend the implications of the life of a trans man..

I know which approach I'd want for my kids..

Gant21

A couple of days in the bog is needed after reading all that.

briangriffin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119273786#Comment_119273786

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-49036145

I'd never blindly trust any organisation /ideology with my kids lives but that's just me.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119273959#Comment_119273959

If that is the best treatment that helps a child make an informed decision at an appopate age then yes.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119273982#Comment_119273982

Puberty blockers are not given to 6 year olds so your comments are a bit hysterical. I have few problems with a 12 year old agreeing to puberty blockers if they have been consitent in their assertions about their gender since th were a six year old.

What you are indulging in is straw man arguments.

dorothylives

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-10969077/Every-trans-child-treated-NHS-records-scrutinised-regret-transitioning.html

And so it begins. It's about time better measures are put in place. I think this is just the tip of the iceberg and I feel huge sympathy for the people who have been damaged by going down this route. There seems to be more of a push to get young people onto medication and into body disfiguring surgeries rather than to pause and think about what they're doing and counsel them on what it means if they go ahead.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119274374#Comment_119274374

A populist hard right government going after a soft target to rouse up it's dipshit base. Colour me surprised. And yes there will be victims of this decision.

dorothylives

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119274384#Comment_119274384

You'd like to believe that. I think you'd happily see more vulnerable youngsters walked into making the biggest mistake of their lives. This has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with the very damaging and very alarming way that NGO's like Stonewall have been allowed so much power and so much say to push this stuff and that has destroyed so many young lives. Thankfully that's coming to an end and hopefully there will be prosecutions over this. Some of the people behind Tavistock should be jailed and hopefully they'll be struck off.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119274395#Comment_119274395

If an honest review is undertaken without interference then nothng will change

Gender reassignment therapy is not the norm, it is the end of a long process with multiple off ramps.

Keep tilting at windmills.

briangriffin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119274328#Comment_119274328

There is no straw man argument here.

Social transition happens as young as 5. Social transition is not a neutral act in the same way as taking puberty blockers is not a "pause" on puberty. Social transition leads to puberty blockers which leads to hormone therapy. Tavistock had the ability to prove how beneficial all these "treatments" were but failed to follow up with the thousands of children that came through their doors, why on earth would they not follow up to make sure that what they were doing had the best long term outcome for their patients?

briangriffin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119274406#Comment_119274406

For the review to take place then follow ups would have to happen with all the patients so we could actually learn from the past number of years.

There have been numerous whistle blowers from inside Tavistock who claim that treatment was fast tracked without consideration of alternatives, these employees had serious concerns about how children were being treated in the clinic, how quickly they were put on puberty blockers after the initial consultation, enough to resign from their poitions. They claimed that a culture developed where affirmative care was seen as the most appealing outcome for the clinic led by the top down.

Out of 44 children prescribed puberty blockers 43 went on to cross sex hormones in the only published study from tavistock. I'd certainly want the prescribing of puberty blockers to be a very thorough process with checks and balances I wouldn't want to be seeing whistleblowers claiming the opposite.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119274410#Comment_119274410

You characterise the process as progressve grooming, you have so little faith in the fact that a child knows itself and only needs support to realise what it needs. I do not accept your characturisation of the treatment process.

You imagine that forcing a a child who identifies as the opposite gender to their birth sex to remain as their birth sex as a benign and neutral act ? Let's just say would you consider it benign and neutral if your parents made you dress as a girl - because that is what the equivalent scenario would be.

I feel nothing but immense sympathy for the struggles these children and families are going through and I want to see every available help for them to do what is ultimately best for that child, whatever place that takes them to. Blocking their options can only cause more harm.

The real crisis at tavistock is lack of capcacity to meet demand. Any over subscribed service inevitably compromises quality of service.

The solution is not to block that service but to expand it.

c.p.w.g.w

There is also an alarming trend of people working within the field, who are in fear of criticizing any aspect out of fear of being labelled "transphobic"...

I believe this has been an issue stateside, also many of the "experts" in this field seem to be ideological driven...

Listen I hope I'm wrong, but I fear in 10 years time we look back and see the damage that has been done, social contagion of gender dysphoria is very controversial I know, but the increases we are seeing in cases is absolutely bonkers...and we are already seeing kids who've transitioned realize it was a mistake and of course plenty of success too...but it's still very early days

briangriffin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119274448#Comment_119274448

Children this age need to be guided and protected not exposed to an unproven ideology and groomed.

You are confusing children with short adults. Children do not have the mental capacity to understand the implications of making these decisions at that age, that is why they have adults in their lives.

How does a child know they are born in the wrong body?

What is their reference point for coming to that conclusion?

How can they understand the implications of a medical transition?

I believe that a child who identifies as the opposite gender to their birth sex should not be put on a social or medical pathway.

c.p.w.g.w

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119274448#Comment_119274448

It's their sex, not birth sex...sex can't be changed, unless you have figured out a way to alter chromosome's

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119274477#Comment_119274477

You dontunderstand the issue do you.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119274476#Comment_119274476

I disagree, and science does to.

You have a very poor impressing children's ability to understand themselves. You are right in saying we are here to support and guide them, but that doesn't mean we are here to make them fit our expectations of normality.

briangriffin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119274502#Comment_119274502

Ive spent 183 days a year with kids this age for the past 15 years. I'm well aware of what they need and how vulnerable they are.

Normality?

Because I don't want these children to be indoctrinated into an ideological cult does not make me a Conservative nor does you thinking you are being progressive in your approach to this issue make you a modern thinker.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119274576#Comment_119274576

Once you say ideological cult you abundantly identify yourself as a cultist in your own right.

You stopped discussing the issues and signalled your political tribe.

c.p.w.g.w

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119274496#Comment_119274496

I under basic biology...now if someone with xy chromosomes wants to wear a dress and call themselves Mary, more power to them and I genuinely couldn't care less that's their decision, but that person is still biological male and nothing can change that...

I have a in-laws who are male who wear high heels and make up(kinda a cross between Noel Fielding & David Bowie) and is gay, if he was 10 years younger, he'd had been called transgender, but his just a gay man, who enjoys wearing what he wants and expressing himself how he sees fit...his still a male and that's what his chromosomes will tell us

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119274609#Comment_119274609

Gender and biological sex are the issue, if you dont accept that then your not discussing the issue.

c.p.w.g.w

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119274627#Comment_119274627

Sorry can you expand on that?

You mentioned sex earlier

briangriffin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119274583#Comment_119274583

Wanting to stop indoctrination of our children does not make me a member of a cult. It's a very real child safeguarding problem.

Ignoring the harm caused and shutting down any and all debate as heresy would be markers of a cult. Take a look in the mirror

Children are vulnerable as are many young adults on the autistic spectrum or suffering from mental health issues ,those are the people most harmed by this ideology because they lack the ability to think critically about what is going on. The problem with affirmative care was raised by one of the authors of the Dutch protocol recently who was worried about the approach taken in the US UK and elsewhere. Its not my perception of a problem its a very real problem and I'm not the one ignoring it.

https://www.ad.nl/nijmegen/dringend-meer-onderzoek-nodig-naar-transgenderzorg-aan-jongeren-waar-komt-de-grote-stroom-kinderen-vandaan~aec79d00/?referrer=https%3A%2F%2F4thwavenow.com%2F

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119267981#Comment_119267981

I haven't been following this thread but I noticed this post last night and I had read that Nature article before so I thought I'd chime in. While the case mentioned in the first paragraph is quite extraordinary, it doesn't seem to me to be evidence against sex being binary.

While the sex of the woman herself is ambiguous, and genetically indeterminate, for her to represent some previously unidentified sex, there would have to be some credible genetic mechanism for her to pass that trait on to her offspring. But, more than likely the woman's children are normal XX girls or XY boys, given that she is considered to be a form of chimera resulting from fusion of two fertilised eggs rather than her inheriting this trait from her parents.

So, if her condition is not genetically determined (the way sex normally is) then it seems like it's better described as an exception or anomaly to the normal classification of sex. So, it's not the same then as rare blood types. Take AB- blood type. Only 0.5% of the world population has AB- blood, but it's still a real blood type on the same level as O+, which is 80 times more common. And that's because it is inherited through exactly the same mechanism, just more rarely.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119274644#Comment_119274644

The concept of biological sex is always, always, always avoided because it's extremely inconvenient to the arguments made by trans activists.

The primary goal is to draw people into a confusing imbroglio about gender identity, hopeful that people don't go back to the fact that biological identity cannot ever be changed.

You've seen the tactic here yourself, and it's widespread too - it's the stock approach to the debate.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119274897#Comment_119274897

Surely as a homosexual you realise that sex isn't as straightforward as you claim.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119275084#Comment_119275084

Lol. What?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119275084#Comment_119275084

It couldn't be simpler. Sure even children understand it.

Every single other homosexual I know is either gender critical or keeps their opinion to themselves because they know what the reaction will be.

I think you overstate this "community" aspect of the LGBT "community". It is riven with irreversible division over this question.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119275084#Comment_119275084

I'm bisexual, and sex (not the act) is extremely straightforward. Why would someone's sexuality change that?

Are you mixing up sex with gender?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119275275#Comment_119275275

I think it's this insidious/disgusting idea that is being pushed that homosexuals are Trans.. that if they had been exposed to Trans ideas when teenagers then, they would have chosen to become Trans as opposed to being homosexual.

It's one of the things I've grown to despise about Trans advocates because in pushing such an idea, they're copying the older culture of conversion for homosexuals. While I was very confused/frustrated about both sex and gender, along with my own identity as a teen/YA, I never felt myself to be anything like Trans is today. I have feminine behaviours, but I love being a man... and yet, I suspect if I had to go through my teens again, I'd be repeatedly encouraged to see myself as being Trans rather than a man attracted sexually to both sexes.

I think the LGBQ community is reaching a breaking point about the T in their midst. Considering just how few Trans people we encounter (I'm not including non-binary) while being part of the LGBTQ community... the T have assumed far too much representation of the whole group, and I would say people are getting a mite tired of the association. Not so much with the average Trans person.. but with the Trans activists/advocates/spokespersons we see online or in the media.

Your attempt at ironic humour doesnt impress.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119275569#Comment_119275569

Huh? What ironic humour? I don't see anything even remotely humorous in my posts. Although without quoting posters, it's hard to know who you're referring to.

But I'm not terribly surprised that your response to posters doesn't deal with what they've written.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119275489#Comment_119275489

That is not what anyone has suggested here. What is been is been said by youself is that there are biological males and biological female and nothing else can exist. What biological function does a homosexual male serve ?

It's not me who is been prescriptive about what a person can be.

Biology is a functional description, how you express your gender is entirely separate. The fact that for most people this overlaps is a not a definition of how it must be.

If we focus on birth sex then homosexuals are redundant, even impossible. This is not what I believe at all.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119275743#Comment_119275743

So, you are conflating sex, gender, and then, sexuality on top of those two. Glad to clear that one up.

As for being prescriptive, I'm relying on science... per the thread topic. There are two sexes, verifiable by science, and there is currently no way to change them to the point where a man can become a woman, the same way as a woman born to that sex. I don't favour your position of releasing all boundaries, and ensuring that definitions of sex have no meaning.

Stop mixing up sex and gender. They're different things. And your attempts to connect sexuality to them is ridiculous and honestly quite insulting. It's obvious that you have no conception of what's involved in being homosexual or bisexual.

I've no idea why you're attempting to bring sexuality into this topic at all. Many Trans retain their original sexuality even after they transition.. some change, many don't. Being Trans is about identity in regards to sex (transition) and gender (both transitioning and non-binary).. sexuality isn't any kind of core part of the Trans topic. My guess is that you're trying to reinforce the link between Trans and LGB as for LGB the primary focus is sexuality, with identity being secondary. Again, piggybacking off the LGB community for validation of Trans issues.

People change their physical gender every day of the week. If you choose not to recognise they have then that is your problem not there's.

There are men who were born as women everywhere and you do not even see them.

Sex, gender and sexuality will not be seperated to suit your tastes.

Good lord. I give up. Utterly impossible to have a conversation with you.

If you want to define terms to suit your conclusions then yes there is no possibility to have a meaningful conversation.

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119275835#Comment_119275835

I have no idea what you're on about.

Science...I do not think that word means what you think it does.

Changing physical gender every day of the week? Sounds painful.

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119276083#Comment_119276083

The arrogance. You think your posts are meaningful?

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119275489#Comment_119275489

You make fair points here. I think for my own part I sometimes feel like my thoughts on this are on a ping pong table — where even when I feel batted away by the apparent insistence that some of the more eccentric ideas out there about gender identity need to be accepted at face value without debate, some of the responses from right leaning folk volley me right back over to the liberal side of the table.

I think where conservative people fall into a trap on this topic is that they fail to recognise that compassion and empathy aren’t snowflakey happy clappy concepts, but are actually very solid ways of society coming to a healthier and more constructive place in addressing this issue. If we were more willing to try to understand and empathise with people with non-conventional feelings about their own gender, there might be a lot less of a feeling for a need to be radical. Instead you just get all the intellectual edgelord stuff like “OK so if I identify as a duck now then you have to call me a duck” or YouTube videos titled “[insert conservative YouTube personality] reacts to INSANE woke liberal snowflake TikToks”. A lot of conservatives just want to deride, not empathise, and in doing so create the very environment which encourages some liberals to be more radical about this. That’s not to take away blame from those liberal people who will slap transphobe on anyone who dissents.

I find in these discussions you always get this massive clash between a section of liberals who just want to yell at everyone who doesn’t conform to their thinking, and a section of conservatives who are never willing to empathise with anyone who doesn’t conform to theirs.

The issue I have is summed up very succintly. Some people are claiming that your chromosomes are an infallible definition of your sex. This implicitly denies the lived reality of people who have transitioned their sex to meet their gender identity. It denies their reality and attempts to close the door to that reality for others.

That is an intentional attack on trans people dressed up as science, a science which is far more complex than this simple binary definition Allows.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119276451#Comment_119276451

You make fair points here. I think for my own part I sometimes feel like my thoughts on this are on a ping pong table — where even when I feel batted away by the apparent insistence that some of the more eccentric ideas out there about gender identity need to be accepted at face value without debate, some of the responses from right leaning folk volley me right back over to the liberal side of the table.

TBH I don't really see any liberal sides to the debate. The supposed left/liberal are easily as intolerant as any of those firmly of the right. As for right leaning folk.. I don't get that, simply because I feel that few people are clear in their own minds enough to be firmly fixed in their positions. Instead, most people lean different directions depending on the particular aspect of the discussion. The trans topic is so broad, that I find most people are pro-certain aspects, neutral on others, and against a few.. I've encountered very few people who would be entirely pro/against the overall trans topic, and honestly, I would trust anyone that was.

This topic is not like homosexuality. Sexuality is simple and direct. There's no confusion as to what it entails... none. Whereas the trans topic shifts depending on who is advocating it, it represents multiple different movements (transitions, non-binary, etc) while supposedly representing them all, etc. It's a vague confused mess of ideas and conflicting opinions.

I think where conservative people fall into a trap on this topic is that they fail to recognise that compassion and empathy aren’t snowflakey happy clappy concepts, but are actually very solid ways of society coming to a healthier and more constructive place in addressing this issue. 

Whereas I see conservative people being fully capable of being and appreciating compassion/empathy... Such expressions were part of traditional societies, just as much as any modern society. If anything, there was probably more appreciation for it, because of the emphasis on community, and helping those around them, which is very much part of the conservative perspective.

The problem is rapid social change without due diligence being done to determine the long-term effects of those changes on society. That's the issue for most conservatives, and why they're resistant to change. The trans topic in the west is relatively new. There's extremely little research on it, with what's available relating to small samples, and little effort to track the long-term effects on both the individual and to society. Which is why I would agree with the conservatives on this topic.

It's not about empathy and compassion. It's about responsibility, and not setting up teens/children for an ultimate fall later in life. I've seen nothing from conservatives outside of the US, seeking to prevent adults from doing what they want. The limitation is when the desires of the Trans intersects with the interests of the majority...

If we were more willing to try to understand and empathise with people with non-conventional feelings about their own gender, there might be a lot less of a feeling for a need to be radical.

I would say that society has made remarkable progress in doing just that... as homosexuality has mostly been accepted in society, within a relatively short period of time. No, seriously. How far are people expected to step beyond the traditional boundaries? Because honestly, it sounds like with the Trans debate, the desire is for the boundaries/definitions regarding gender to be removed entirely. In any case, though, we live in a society that is extremely supportive of aspects relating to gender and identity. As a lecturer (and mentor at university level), I've been to dozens of workshops/conferences, relating to how we should support students in such situations... the interest is already around to support/sympathise with those involved.. TBH I would say there's not enough interest in limiting it, and far too much interest in embracing it.

The problem is that there's little expectation within the Trans community or their advocates to reciprocate.. Everything is expected to go one way.. towards supporting and enabling the interests of the Trans community. So.. no.. I don't see much balance in the overall situation, because there is no desire to meet half-way, or to allow society the time needed to adjust to change. Everything needs to be now.

Instead you just get all the intellectual edgelord stuff like “OK so if I identify as a duck now then you have to call me a duck” or YouTube videos titled “[insert conservative YouTube personality] reacts to INSANE woke liberal snowflake TikToks”. A lot of conservatives just want to deride, not empathise, and in doing so create the very environment which encourages some liberals to be more radical about this. That’s not to take away blame from those liberal people who will slap transphobe on anyone who dissents

It's an extremely bitchy topic. Seriously.. and it's come from all sides.

Dunno why you have such a focus on two sides. ie. liberal vs conservatives. It's not that simple.

I find in these discussions you always get this massive clash between a section of liberals who just want to yell at everyone who doesn’t conform to their thinking, and a section of conservatives who are never willing to empathise with anyone who doesn’t conform to theirs.

That's fair. TBH I think the biggest problem is the advocates of the Trans who are not Trans themselves, because they assume a position they know nothing about, but react aggressively to anyone who disagrees with them. This thread is full of examples of both the aggression, and the dismiss/deflect/discredit attitude from such advocates...

If the advocates could step back, shut up, and allow the Trans to segment their movement into three/four distinct and separate movements, I think we'd see far more progress (along with the sympathy you mentioned) for some, although I do think for non-binary, any kind of support will be a long-time coming. It's all still too vague and conflicts with itself.