Moving my kids to another GAA club

heftie

Transfer was submitted in old paper format,signed by myself (parent ) and club secretary and submitted by the club secretary (not signed by my son.)

Form accepted by CCC

It was rejected on the rule 6.2 TO 2023 by CCC

Appealed it TO Hearings Ctee and signed it in same way as transfer request.Ruled out of order because my son didnt sign it citing the appellant has to sign it , he's 12 years old.😏

This was rubber stamped by Leinster Council

I still contend that club secretary/ myself are the appellant as all communications were through her and all responses were to her.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121946348#Comment_121946348

So, can you not just resubmit it, signed by him and co-signed by you?

heftie

I could try it I suppose but I've been told he has to sit it out and reapply next year ,expecting a different result would be optimistic

In this day and age what 12 year old signs anything? Unheard of I'd say

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121946348#Comment_121946348

Thanks.

I'm still struggling to understand how you say it was rejected under Rule 6.2, because as previously stated, Rule 6.2 is just definitions. Rules 6.3 (Attachment to First Club) and 6.4 (Transfers Within County) would appear to be the relevant ones instead.

So, can you please explain in plain English rather than reference to Rule number what were the exact grounds they cited for refusing the transfer? If the situation really is as you've outlined, I honestly don't see any valid grounds for refusing it.

However, on the matter of signing the appeal form, the relevant Rule is 6.4(f), and it's quite clear that it must be signed by the player himself:

I'd contend myself that it should instead say something like "shall be signed by the appellant player (or a parent or guardian if the appellant player is under 18 years old)", but it doesn't actually say that. Leinster are therefore correct in their interpretation and application of this rule.

On the suggestion of just trying again this year - chances are that the deadline for transfer applications this year has already passed. I'm in Wexford, and our deadline for underage transfer applications is the last day of February. I don't know what Carlow's is, but I'd be surprised if they allowed them up to the end of March, because that would cause a delay in grading teams for competitions for the year.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121946538#Comment_121946538

You can decide to make this all about the principle of the thing and deny your kid a chance to play, even though you say it's really important to him.

Or you can just go along with the rules as they are and re-submit with his signature.

It sounds like a no-brainer tbh

heftie

They just cited " rule 6.2 Treoir Oifiguil 2023 , that's it! , it was up to us to interpret it after this so I interpreted it as being as you said " atrachment to first club, catchment area , relevant connection etc the whole shebang!! Cannot understand it ourselves.

heftie

Thanks for the help.I work in Wx would be interested in meeting up if that's possible.thought that being from area , living in the area would give us a good chance but it turns out to be the opposite.

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121946929#Comment_121946929

I really don't know then. You'd have been entitled to ask for a more detailed explanation, but that ship has probably sailed by now.

Again, if the circumstances are as you've outlined, I really don't understand why a transfer wasn't granted.

I do understand why the appeal form wasn't accepted, because it wasn't in accordance with the rule (but I repeat my view that the rule should be different, to allow parents/guardians to sign on behalf of underage players). However, what they could have done on the QT is say "listen, your appeal has a good chance, but the wrong person signed it, so we can't deal with it - throw it in again quickly with the right signature and we'll deal with it as though that's the way it was all along".

With transfer applications deadline surely passed by now, and it being way too late to submit a fresh appeal, I'm afraid it really is a case of just having to wait until next year and then try again, bearing all these things in mind. It's a decision for yourself whether your son continues to play with the other club in the meantime, or sits out the year.

I won't offer to meet you to discuss things further because there's really no more I can tell you. Sorry.

heftie

No bother thanks

heftie

Yep we move on , just a pity it worked out this way we'll find something else to do .

The GAA slogan " where we all belong" is a soundbite and only that.

heftie

Yep you're dead right.Better to have him hurling.its not about me.But we were fu_ked over by the GAA.

Mite try the cricket!!

heftie

Yep yer right, we move on but we were f-cked over by a bunch of illiterate amateurs,and the kids suffer, if this was a business they'd be sacked longtime ago,my problem is how do I ever get away from this club?

Sheep breeder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121946643#Comment_121946643

Think this is where the problem lies with the signature on the form and the club secretary should have known better, it’s a good few years since was involved in transfers and attendance at county, but the player always signed the forms and they stick to that,

thomas 123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121944248#Comment_121944248

This whole thing is nuts. The GAA are a farce.

heftie

Yep a complete farce

heftie

Yep fair point , but initial transfer request was accepted , shouldn't have needed an appeal given his circumstances but because of another GAA mistake a child has to pay the price and put the onus on us to point that out , and then hide behind a formality to exclude him, very fkn shoddy

heftie

Thanks pure farce

heftie

He's 12 years old !

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121948314#Comment_121948314

OK, I'm sorry to be blunt here but yeah, he's 12 years old, but I presume you are not.

You need to start acting like the responsible adult here and just move things along in the most efficient and least troublesome way possible.

The county board have their rules, just go along with it, it's not a big deal. The people in the club he wants to transfer to are not going to bend over backwards to help on this, they've a whole other club to worry about and they're not going to take on the county board for you.

Giving the admins in his current club a load of abuse isn't going to help either. You've now named these people on a public message board and called them all sorts of names (as well as making yourself and your child personally identifiable), so I'm going to guess your direct interactions haven't been plain sailing either. Imagine if someone shows this thread to the secretary of the club, how is he/she going to react to that?

So swallow your pride, remember who you're supposed to be doing this for, and just get on with it.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121946643#Comment_121946643

The problem is that a 12-year old's signature is not legally valid, as s/he is a minor.

There is also the concept that if a child signs up to a GAA club, that they are not of the age to understand that this means they are binding themselves to that club, so the GAA rules regarding transfers of those under 18 are probably legally unenforceable.

heftie

Yep yer right 100% , mistakes were made on all sides so I'm going to park it up and let him play his football/ rowing and concentrate on that.

heftie

Yep agree to all that but GAA wont change their rules just for me.just need to keep him busy for the year and go again next year

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121949238#Comment_121949238

On your first point, a GAA transfer appeal form is not a legal document, but notwithstanding this, I've already said how I think myself there should be provision for it to be signed by a parent or guardian if the player is under 18.

On the second, a parent or guardian should be asked to sign any membership/registration form. Here's the relevant section from my own club's underage registration form -

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121947375#Comment_121947375

I like to follow a bit of the hurling and football but that soundbite intensely annoys me. It's arrogant and possessive and implies a lot. If I had a say, I'd slash GAA funding till they remove it.

appledrop

God almighty what a joke!

Sign him up to the nearest soccer club, none of that carry on and all the kids will get to play.

Uncle Pierre

Has been a while since anybody posted here, and that last comment just doesn't sit right with me as the final word, so am going to make a point I've made many times before -

The GAA is unique in that it's a community-based organisation as well as a sporting one. Some people consider that a great strength. Others consider it a fault and a weakness.

Basically, all rules regarding catchment areas, transfers, etc., are designed to protect clubs from losing players to other clubs, just because those players want to play somewhere else. If it really was a case of "play where you like", then there's no guarantee that some clubs would ever have more than just a handful of players at all.

Yes, you don't have it in soccer, but that leads to other issues. My local soccer club won U14 Div. 3 last year, and were obviously hoping to go well in U15 Div. 2 this year too. But then our two best players were lured away to a successful Div. 1 club in the nearby town, which usually goes well in the Leinster Cup competition too, on the promise of being able to play "better" soccer and maybe reach a Leinster Cup Final.

Our U15s have struggled as a result, and have even shipped a couple of heavy beatings along the way. It's hugely disheartening to the players who remain there (one of my sons is one of them), and to the coaches too (a good friend of mine is one of them). Am sure it's equally disheartening to the players in the town club who were part of that side last year, but who have had to make way for the lads who came in from our place.

The GAA rules prevent that sort of thing from happening all over the place. Again, some people consider that a strength, while others consider it a fault and a weakness. I'm in the first group myself.

heftie

I 100% agree but when the club you are at ,put no effort in at school level,are never seen at cumann na mbunscoil games, have no presence in 4 out of 5 of the town's primary schools (1500 children )and out of laziness join up with another town club at u 16 level and want to run 2 joint teams at u16 shows a distinct lack of ambition.In existence 14 years , never had a minor team,no junior team,nothing for young players to aspire to , why hang around ?? The best coaches they had left when they sought a committment from the club not to join with neighbouring club even when they had 20 players at u 16 level.where is a club like that heading??One coach they had won a championship at u13 a few years ago and they got rid of him because him let a few expletives every now and then ? They take players from Laois ,Kildare,aand wont chase players right under their noses on the town? Why hang around if you want to be competitive and better yourself!

KaneToad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121999003#Comment_121999003

I'd be getting rid of a coach who curses at 12 year old children too.

heftie

Never said that yer jumping the gun

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121974091#Comment_121974091

That isn't remotely the same thing. The professional future in soccer determines that pathway.

In GAA, if a young boy or girl is unhappy, why would any adult stand in their way of a move? It is pathetic bullying.

I can see the argument for keeping adult players, but to inflict this situation on a child is sickening.

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122002883#Comment_122002883

Yes, because somebody who moves from an U14 Div. 3 team to an U15 Div. 1 team in the Wexford & District Schoolboys League is surely being fast-tracked to career of international superstardom and wild riches and fame.

Seriously, though - you're obviously one of those who considers the GAA's status as a community organisation as well as a sporting one to be a fault and a weakness. And just as I've often made the point above, I know too that there's no point in trying to change the mind of somebody who thinks like that. Never the twain, and all that.

heftie

Yes I agree the GAA has to have rules to protect clubs etc I get that but these rules should be implemented fairly and interpreted properly.Each case should be given due consideration on it's own merits(which ours was not).The GAA needs competent staff at all levels who are solution focused not problem focussed.Hiding behind their misinterpretation of the rulebook is just sickening especially when a child loses out.Its imperative that officials administering the GAA are fully aware of their responsibilities and the consequences of getting decisions wrong especially when child welfare is at stake

Leroy42

Exactly. The rules were designed to stop players shopping around clubs. It was not designed to force children to either put up with unhappy situations.

It seems crazy to force a child to simply accept a poor situation on the alter of everyone is community based.

Particularly galling when, as adults, they are free to move on the basis of travel time or work commitments.

Childrens sport is supposed to be about fun and enjoyment and instilling a life long love of sport.

Why anyone would not only object, but actively seek to put the processes of the organisation above the needs of a child is beyond me.

Let the kid go and play where he is happy. If there is no obvious reason not to allow it then just allow it and deal with the process after.

Who is this sticking to the fineprint of the rules going to help? Not the child, not the family, neither club. Probably losing a player for the future but at least some process can be deemed as robust.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121952813#Comment_121952813

Sign him up to the nearest soccer club, none of that carry on and all the kids will get to play.

I can only speak to my experience in suburban Dublin but the reality is the exact opposite.

All the GAA clubs will take as many kids as want to play and if that means fielding eight or nine teams in a single age group on a Sunday, then that's what they do.

In contrast, the soccer clubs are only interested in fielding the best team they can. I think the idea of running trials and telling an 8 year old that they're not good enough is absolutely mental, but that's what happens. My nephew was told that after two years with his club, a few new kids had come along and he couldn't even come to training any more because the squad was now too big. He's 11.

Again, this is the reality in Dublin 15 which is absolutely teeming with kids, maybe it's different in smaller towns and rural areas but the soccer clubs around here are only interested in winning and getting into as high a division as possible. That's grand, it's up to them how they want to run their clubs, but in terms of "inclusivity" and letting as many kids as possible take part, the GAA is absolutely streets ahead.

Tombo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122003012#Comment_122003012

Well to be fair, its not like you are changing your mind about anything either.

On the earlier point you made - I think in that instance the GAA system works well; it is disheartening when the best players get poached and the GAA system does make this very difficult.

However, the GAA almost prides itself on making it very difficult for any child to change club; and the thing is that there can be very good reasons for a child to change club.

My club is quite a large one, which means at underage we have strong teams, middle teams, weak teams. We had a kid come to us last year as he was disheartened about the club he was with. The club had one underage team and he just wasnt getting a look in. Very little game time. And say what you want about every kid getting an equal chance and equal game time, if you are playing a really tight match at a high level against very strong opposition - you will have your strongest players on the pitch. So I completely got where the other club was coming from, and also where the kid was coming from. When he joined our club, he was in with lads of similar standard, in a low division, where he should be.

Our weak team was a natural home for this kid; but the gaa wouldnt let him join for 11 months, even though both clubs were supportive. He could easily have given up in that time.

Overall - my point would be - any time I go to these coaching forums, anytime I hear these sorts of discussions on transfers - its always about the strong kid. How do we develop them, how do we get the best coaches in, how do we stop them being poached.

Underage GAA imho does a pretty crap job at catering for weak kids, particularly as they get older. How do we keep them engaged, how do we stop them dropping out. And the inflexibility around club movement is part of the problem rather than solution here.

Tombo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122004184#Comment_122004184

I hear this narrative about soccer a lot, but I dont know how fair it is.

The reality is if you look at DDSL at underage - they have divisions one down to division 11 or 12. This is more or less the same as the GAA.

And to your point on 'they all want to be in a higher division' - well, not really, the guys in Division 11 arent going to get into Division One or even Division 8 any time soon.

Probably the difference between the two sports is that they cater for elite kids in different ways.

In soccer, the elite kids change clubs - they go to places like SKB or Shamrock Rovers. If it works out they stay, it doesnt work out they go back to their old club (which as far as I can see, happens more often than not).

With the GAA, you have much larger clubs - so the the Top Division wont be an elite club aka Shamrock Rovers. Rather it will be made up of the A teams of Ballyboden or Kilmacud or whatever.

And then there is further streaming when players join the Dublin underage panels.

Overall this is probably a better way of doing it than what the soccer does. However:

• the streaming within GAA clubs, which happens at a very young age in Dublin GAA, under 9 and under 8 a lot of the time, creates its own problems within clubs. It can cause a lot of resentment within clubs.
• It does mean that you'll have all these small clubs in Division 5 or 6 that have one or two amazing players. As good as any player in Division 1. Not sure this is a problem per se. The same clubs will to the same point have players that cant cope with the level they are at, not good enough.
• to be fair to the soccer, they dont have the resources of the gaa clubs so they dont have capacity to take on 4 or 5 teams for any given age. Its not necessarily that they are choosing to do it that way. But when its discussed its always about the coaches being mad keen to win at all costs.

So my own view is that this is a bit of a stick to beat the soccer with.

And to my earlier point, it does make the discussion all about the elite players - which is only 10% of the playing population at underage.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122003012#Comment_122003012

No, I have been through the process of moving my son from one club to another. It went relatively smoothly, but the issues that gave rise to it were never handled properly.

The interests of the community as viewed by adults giddy with power should never be put ahead of the interests of a child.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122004268#Comment_122004268

Excellent post, summing up the short-sighted nature of the GAA approach. All about old men with power, and nothing about the interests of the child.

Leroy42

Rural clubs might have a point, but is forcing a child to stay in an environment they are unhappy in really the answer?

Rather than make obstacles for the child, maybe look at why the child is looking to move. If their friends are in a different club, let them go. Heck, if there isn't a reason but the child is simply unhappy, then the GAA should be looking to be as accommodating as possible.

This is juvenile sport, so what if one team manages to hoover up the best players? So they win the U12 to U16 leagues. GAA is not supposed to be about winning but competing and having fun. Yes, every so often you will get a club that looks to get all the best players and win at all costs, but that would be picked up pretty quickly and a stop can be put on that.

If a team go only continue based on forcing players to play for them rather than a team they would have more fun at then the club needs to look at itself. In many situations, its a lack of playing time and/or the coaches are not treating the kid well. So drop down a few divisions and let all the kids have the same game time, forget the result.

Tombo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122005444#Comment_122005444

Yeah - I should have emphasised that. It would be a different set up in a rural situation, but I wouldnt think its that different. There are plenty of very small clubs in Dublin, Setanta, Crumlin, Robert Emmets, Monicas for example. And any given county will have its own big clubs - Eire Og in Carlow for example.

And I completely agree with you about coaches, but to be fair - I didnt really mention coaches at all. This is more about the bureaucracy of player movement, which is decided at County Board level. And on that front, I think there should be scope for looking at special cases where they exist.

And even then, this is a small enough gripe in the overall scheme - any given county board has volunteers putting in massive work to determine competition schedules, appoint refs, take in scores etc etc etc. I dont see anyone thanking them for it. I'd say they are fairly stretched as it is.

Tombo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122005515#Comment_122005515

Well - a question might then be - if the county board says, I agree with you but we dont have the resources to manage a big increase of 'case by case' requests for player movements, which I'd say is the situation in most counties - then if asked, would you commit to taking on that job for the next five years. If not, then why would you expect someone else to do it.

CramCycle

So just to be clear, if your kid signed the form and resubmitted, legal opinions aside, would this all be over?

celt262

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122005515#Comment_122005515

GAA is not supposed to be about winning but competing and having fun

It's about winning the same as any other sport.

The kids want to win the coaches want to win the parents want to win.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122004500#Comment_122004500

So my own view is that this is a bit of a stick to beat the soccer with.

I'm only speaking from my own experience as a parent here.

The attitude in the GAA clubs near me is come along, have fun, do your best and at a certain point we'll stream you according to ability, but you'll always get to play. The attitude in the soccer clubs is come along, we'll have a look at you and we'll let you know if we want you to join.

Again, that's fine, but the statement was that 'everyone gets to play' at the soccer clubs, that just isn't true.

heftie

Mite give it a go nothing to lose at this stage

heftie

I proposed this before and was told the horse had bolted

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122006234#Comment_122006234

They can't refuse you on procedural grounds and then refuse to let you reapply.

Just get your child to sign the form and submit it. You are the only person who can move this forward. Don't 'propose' anything, just do it.

Leroy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122005677#Comment_122005677

Wrong way around. This isn't about a lack of resources. The county board want the process to be complicated and, in this case, has to be done a second time because of an arcane rule. There are people already involved who are creating work for themselves due to these silly over-the-top rules. You shouldn't need a law degree to make something like this happen.

The organisation places such little prominence on the happiness of its members. They talk about child protection but in this case they seem to have forgotten about the child and put its rules above the needs of the player.

appledrop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122006155#Comment_122006155

This is absolutely not true. My son plays in soccer club here in North Dublin and they have like 5 or 6 teams in his age group. Everyone gets to play regardless of their ability, so that's nonsense. Actually it was a local GAA club here that was taking to the high court for not letting kids play!

Here is the article, a nice light read!

https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-law/courts/2023/02/17/resolution-reached-in-court-case-alleging-four-children-were-barred-from-gaa-club/

appledrop

Basicially what it all started over was there was a tournament that only a 'select' few kids where told and invited too and then the other parents found out and then it all escalated.