Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed. **Threadbans in OP**

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121671638#Comment_121671638

There is a reason Alfie Lyons was never a major suspect.

Because he could explain things like the wound on his hand.

We don't know what the Gardai know about Lyons and why they didn't suspect him.

But the reallity is they didn't suspect him and the reasons are probablymundane and ordinary.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121670406#Comment_121670406

This might sound a crazy idea, but this was the time before most people had yet to have mobile phones, house phones were the norm. Did killer, for one moment at least, want to access Sophie’s house phone for some reason?

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121671923#Comment_121671923

I think you'd only go back to the house for something very important, such as removing incriminating evidence.

Some people have said to turn off the lights and close the door, but I don't think that's important.

The phone idea is possible but it would have to be a very important phonecall.

On a similar theme, maybe someone knocked on her door that night to say their car had broken down and needed to use the phone. That type of thing was common back then.

FishOnABike

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121671923#Comment_121671923

I'd very much doubt it. Doing so might provide information which could lead to identifying both called and calling party.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121671897#Comment_121671897

But Alfie never had to explain anything - he was never a suspect as far as we know. But he and Shirley should have been treated as a suspect.

The gardai allowed Shirley to drive off to the dump with the rubbish in her car just hrs after Shirley discovered the body. Would you be so keen to still go to the dump after discovering your neighbour murdered - very odd behaviour. Either Shirley was as hard as nails and had no compassion or she was hiding something. They also allowed Shirley to drive her car right through the crime scene which could have destroyed material evidence.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121671574#Comment_121671574

To me this feels personal, by someone close to her. It's important to be open to all possibilities but the drugs angle is less likely.

I'd draw a Venn diagram of people that knew her, that knew where she lived, knew she was in the house that night, knew she was alone that night and were in close proximity that night.

This list would include but not be exclusive to: Alfie Lyons and Shirley, Josie Hellen and her family, the Ungerers, Bolger, Ian Bailey (its possible he knew she was in her house but maybe he didn't), whoever fixed her heating...and so on.

I'd start with that list and crosscheck with motive, alibis, criminal record of violence, sexual crimes, stalking, peeping or other types of antisocial behaviour.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121671866#Comment_121671866

Where's the crayola drawing of Alfie's hand then by a Guard???

I have seen nothing to indicate that Alfie's wound was closely examined. It was noted Alfie had a bandage on his hand, that was all. This was posted earlier on the thread:

Garda Gerard Prendeville interviewed Alfie Lyons on the day of the discovery of the crime. His report details the fact that Alfie's hand was bandaged and that Alfie's explanation of the injury was that a dog had bitten him.

And also noted here: https://www.crimeguy.com/p/the-unusual-suspects

So it is reasonable to propose that it wasn't closely examined. If you have evidence to the contrary, then provide it and I'll withdraw that.

The tons of stuff on Bailey on the murder? Nope, there isn't "tons of stuff" on Bailey on the murder. There's lots of speculation, and some weak flimsy circumstantial evidence that is either debateable in point of fact or can have an innocent explanation. There's no motive, no witness (Marie Farrell the fantasist doesnt count), no trace of him at the crime scene. His alibi is all over the shop but that is not positive proof of his involvement.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121672072#Comment_121672072

Crazy when you think of it. The Gardai there certainly created the unholy mess of a tangled mystery that remains. It could surely have been very much further narrowed down with good timely police work.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121672074#Comment_121672074

Probably within that circle alright. They probably knew her and that's part of the reason she was killed they would have known the house and that she was away mostly.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121672135#Comment_121672135

I remember in the Joe O'Reilly case, the detective said that the sheer brutality made it look like a personal motive. Someone with real rage and anger towards Rachel.

Joe O'Reilly had messed up to house to make it look like a burglary but the detective knew it was bullshit.

This is similar. The sheer brutality and the isolation of the house and how infrequently she was home, makes it look personal to me.

tomhammer..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121672074#Comment_121672074

Bailey knew plenty about Sophie as soon as she died but strangely little beforehand

I would say he knew plenty about her and her movements

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121672176#Comment_121672176

We don't know though. Maybe he met her in Spar shopping that Saturday and chatted with her.

But as far as we know, he barely met her 18 months previously.

It was probably very fulfilling or exciting for him covering such a high profile case, after his journalism career had been in the doldrums.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121671361#Comment_121671361

It wasn’t Sophie’s gate, it was a gate on a lane shared by 2 other properties. For all she knew it could have been the Richardsons coming to their holiday home for Christmas. Or a visitor to Alfie and Shirley, or a delivery or a tradesman. She would have no business confronting someone at that gate.

However if someone had come through that gate and turned left after a few yards and went through Sophie’s own gate into her lower lawn then she would have reason to investigate.

So more than likely someone was on her property for one reason or another. Using it as an unofficial right of way to Alfie's land-locked field and shed, or spying on her.

Every room in her house had at least one window to the front facing the gates at the bottom of her lawn, no curtains,no escape from prying eyes.

Sophie is up and about early, had her breakfast and washed up. Back upstairs to get dressed for the day, silhouetted all the time as lights would be on. Something down at the bottom of her lawn alerted her and she turned off the lights and went downstairs and turned those lights off as well.

She pulled on her boots and left by the front door leaving it on the latch with the keys in the lock. She may have picked up a poker on the way as she would have had to pass the fireplace on her way to the front door.

The intruder might have made to leave but she caught up and confronted them, they retaliated, pulled the poker from her and struck her drawing the first blood down by the pumphouse. She went to make her escape out through the open gate onto the lane but her attacker caught her by the gate. A prolonged attack along the gate still using the poker as she clung to the bars of the gate. She made to escape back up the lane towards the houses, but fell or was pushed into the ditch of briars and barbed wire. The the attack continued using the rock and block.

To me this does not look like she was attacked by a 6"3' ex rugby player in his prime. More like a young person or persons or a weaker older person or female.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121672072#Comment_121672072

You nor I have any idea what Alfie and Sherley told the Gardai.

We have no idea what information they gave the Gardai etc etc

We don't know what they explained, what they didn't explain.

All we know is that the Gardai were satisfied that they weren't suspects.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121672477#Comment_121672477

The Gardai on this case were satisfied Marie Farrell was a credible witness.

They dont get the benefit of the doubt

Rows Grower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121672382#Comment_121672382

Ireland's Own said would you give them a shout.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121672382#Comment_121672382

Interesting theory. It explains why she left the house and put on her boots in a hurry.

Why do you think the killer went back to the back door and left a smudge?

I still think it happened at night though.

3 different neighbours said their dogs were barking mad from 12 to 2 am.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121672382#Comment_121672382

It's an interesting idea that Sophie went outside with a poker to confront someone.

Jo Hellen said a poker was missing. We can't be certain of that fact, but she did regularly clean the house.

orangerhyme

Does anyone have any idea why her dressing gown/bathrobe was on the ground next to her?

I was thinking someone chasing her grabbed it and pulled it off her.

FrankN1

Would be good to see some images of the pumphouse and how near it was to the house. Even an aerial view of the house with the key locations.

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121672651#Comment_121672651

The pump was just 20 feet from her body.

It was by the gate into her front garden.

billyhead

Imo Bailey killed her when she refused sex. He was drunk on the night and was known to have a temper and an abuser of women. The guilt of murdering her wrecked his brain for the nearly 30 years after her death.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121672651#Comment_121672651

Her house is the one below where it says Dreenane. Alfie & Shirley lived in the house on the left side of the pic and they also owned the shed to the left of Sophie's house and access was via Sophie's property.

The murder site is roughly where the car is parked along the laneway at the bottom of the image.

This image gives some more perspective of the murder site.

tomhammer..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121672692#Comment_121672692

It wrecks everybody elses brain when these fellas get away with it and spend 25 yrs talking pony and causing confusion

Ends up half the people think it's a French hitman or some gard from bantry absolute nonsense

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121672651#Comment_121672651

Sophie’s house with red/white circle

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121672692#Comment_121672692

And yet there is absolutely zero indication of anything sexual in relation to the attack.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121672692#Comment_121672692

He was some man in fairness. Despite being pissed, he managed to brutally murder her and leave absolutely no evidence behind (DNA or otherwise).

tibruit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121671293#Comment_121671293

Where did Josephine Hellen say that Sophie had a "fractious" relationship with Alfie?

tomhammer..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121672760#Comment_121672760

On the gloves we discussed,now I'll admit I haven't given dna any thought as i assume bailey to be guilty

A poster was suggesting that Bailey may indeed have worn gloves .

His hands may have got scratched through the gloves and of course the gloves don't cover his arms

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121672566#Comment_121672566

You work for that publication Rosie?