Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed. **Threadbans in OP**

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121733726#Comment_121733726

I don't see how the rubbish bags and car could have been thoroughly checked, in the time allotted, and everything else that would have been going on at the scene.

FishOnABike

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121733964#Comment_121733964

Whether the gate eventually turned up or not or whether it was destroyed with approval after it was decided any useful forensic information had already been collected from it is only one issue.

An equally, if not more, significant issue is the implications the confusion about the gate's location and disposal has for proving chain of custody for it, and by implication, also for any other evidence in the case.

tobefrank321

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121734012#Comment_121734012

For the record it wasn't I believe the gardai who destroyed the gate. There's a daft myth going around that some garda lost, deliberately destroyed or borrowed the gate for the use in a field or similar nonsense.

The gate was destroyed 6 years later by the forensics lab after all forensic swabs were taken, and it was of little further use. Their storage area is unlikely to be unlimited.

saabsaab

I wonder is it likely that one of the posters on the thread at some point was the killer? Or at least a reader..

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121734174#Comment_121734174

Are you saying that there is a poster that has recently stopped posting here?

tobefrank321

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121734174#Comment_121734174

Not sure.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121733176#Comment_121733176

IMO the Gardai have very good reasons for Bailey being the main suspect and very good reasons for Lyons and others not being suspects.

Some of those reasons we know, some we don't, but just because we don't know about something does not mean that the Gardai did not investigate it.

Maybe you're right. Sure didn't they have very good reasons for Joanne Hayes being the main suspect and not other suspects. Sure didn't her family even provide identical statements confirming her guilt.

On a more serious note, didn't Gerry O'Carroll write in 2014:

"Over the years I have vehemently disagreed with a central finding of the tribunal: that Joanne Hayes did not give birth to twins. I am convinced that Ms Hayes did give birth to twins and was the mother of both the Tralee and the Cahirciveen babies. The only way to get to the truth of the Kerry Babies mystery is to exhume both infants and subject tissue samples to DNA analysis. This would prove, I believe, that Ms Hayes was the mother of both babies. My belief is based on evidence that was given at the tribunal."

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/detective-gerry-o-carroll-owes-joanne-hayes-an-apology-1.3360692

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121733726#Comment_121733726

So just to confirm: trained professionals will find it very difficult to behave normally at the scene (even though nothing can prepare you for that) but people find nothing unusual in that the person who found the body was able to drive to the dump?

Regarding the discusison of the car being brought to the dump, the simple fact is that it should not have been allowed to leave the scene given what was in it (rubbish for disposal). In all likleihood, there was nothing related to the murder in the rubbish but the fact is that we don't know that and AGS didn't know that. When we're told that surely the Det. Pat Joy (who was in charge of the site and trained in forensics) had the rubbish checked before letting the car go, surely someone with forensic expertise would be aware that hairs, fibres, etc. could be in there and of evidential value. Surely, they could insist that the car remain until forensics gave it the once over - but they didn't!

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121735424#Comment_121735424

Again you are using a completely different case to try and prove a point about this one.

I'm sure I could dig up many cases where the Gardai got it spot on about a suspect.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121735627#Comment_121735627

I'm showing how AGS are not infallible (well, actually they showed it). For some reason people assume that despite the obvious f**k-ups made in the STdP case, they have pinpointed the correct suspect and yet the case has many parallels to the deliberate and incorrect accusations against Joanne Hayes. And there are other high-profile murders where AGS cocked it up. To say that they have the correct suspect in Bailey is simply wishful thinking because of whatever grudge one may have against him but it certainly isn't based on the "evidence" available.

Gussie Scrotch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121735671#Comment_121735671

The Joanne Hayes case does have parallels with the Ian Bailey issue.

In both cases very questionable interrogation techniques led to accusations of bullying and coercion.

In both cases the Garada stubbornly refused to consider alternative theories once thay fixated on their favoured suspect.

In both cases they refused to admit that they were wrong.

Comparisons are apt.

Field east

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121733186#Comment_121733186

One would wonder , big time , why someone would want to move rubbish - or for that matter move anything in the circumstances. Ones first thought would more than likely have been to keep away from the site in case one left any evidence that they were there - leaving finder prints, hair, blood, any bodily fluid, garment fibres , foot ware marks, etc. did Alfie not allude to this atone point?

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121735841#Comment_121735841

Alfie... something like that I guess... he said he didnt get close to the body. Stayed 20 yards away and claimed didnt get close enough to know if the body on the ground was dead or not.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121735424#Comment_121735424

Gerry O’Carroll and his involvement with the Kerry Babies case is pretty much exhibit A of why we shouldn’t trust the Garda view on the death and murder of Sophie. Thanks for reminding us all but I reckon they’re a few on this thread who need a thorough education on Garda doubling down- the Donegal stitch up murder was another example of Gardai not erm, being professional in their job .

Unless they have concrete evidence beyond reasonable doubt against Bailey - this case is still wide fcking open

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121736308#Comment_121736308

And we saw what they tried to do to Maurice McCabe to cover up their corruption. Only he recorded them trying to stitch him up they would have buried him.

They dont get the benefit of the doubt when it comes to lost / tampered / deliberately destroyed evidence, statements, logs or corrupted chain if evidence.

We have more evidence of Garda wrongdoing in this case than of Baileys guilt.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121735671#Comment_121735671

To say that they have the correct suspect in Bailey is simply wishful thinking

Do you go around completely ignoring all the circumstantial evidence against Bailey?

Are you so set against the Gardai that you are willing to disregard everything that makes Bailey a suspect to satisfy your own opinions of the Gardai?

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121735424#Comment_121735424

I agree the car should not have been allowed to go to the dump. I said I assumed the rubbish and car were searched in response to a post that inferred it was allowed through without searching. Having allowed Shirley drive the car out of the cordon, she then stopped for a chat with Ian Bailey on the boreen and she had to leave it outside the cordon on returning. So if any forensic evidence was found it would be useless.

I've no idea what that first bit "So just to Confirm:....." -is about.

CuriousCal

One thing is definitely for sure this case is full of failures from the very start

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121736552#Comment_121736552

I haven't ignored anything. The circumstantial evidence against Bailey is fairly worthless in my humble opinion and in the opinion of at least two DPPs. To a large extent it has been shaped to fit him by AGS.

For the record, my opinions of AGS are not negative. I do have negative feelings against their handling of this case however.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121737447#Comment_121737447

I've no idea what that first bit "So just to Confirm:....." -is about.

The point wasn't necessarily directed towards you.

You made the point about how the scene was so horrific that trained professionals would find it difficult. Yet others feel that Shirley heading off doing her trip to the dump shortly after finding the body would bizarrely have been no bother.

tobefrank321

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121738541#Comment_121738541

Another armchair detective doubting the behaviour of the person who discovered Sophie. Its not a good look.

Have you ever been in the situation that Shirley found herself in, or even remotely similar? If not you probably should keep your opinions on how she acted to yourself.

As for ignoring stuff, its clear you do. Its been said multiple times on here that people in shock act in different ways, eg auto-pilot mode where adrenilen kicks in, inability to process or complete shutdown.

Doubting the behaviour of someone with the misfortune of discovering the body, it adds nothing to discussions on this case, especially as that person was completely exhonerated.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121739254#Comment_121739254

Another armchair detective doubting the behaviour of the person who discovered Sophie. Its not a good look.

Have you ever been in the situation that Shirley found herself in, or even remotely similar? If not you probably should keep your opinions on how she acted to yourself.

I find the whole idea of fecking off to the dump odd and the fact that this was effectively facilitated by AGS makes it even more so. When AGS then turn around and effectively tell us that they have their man makes me question their abilities in investigating this massive cock-up.

However, as I understand it, Shirley hopped out of her car and was shaking with shock and ran back to the house. What made her suddenly fit enough to head to the dump if she was in shock?

Anyhow, pardon me for being involved in a discussion on a murder simply because I never stumbled upon a gruesome murder victim and then proceeded on my important business of going to the local landfill.

As for ignoring stuff, its clear you do. Its been said multiple times on here that people in shock act in different ways, eg auto-pilot mode where adrenilen kicks in, inability to process or complete shutdown.

So which was it for Shirley? Adrenaline kicking in? Inability to process? Complete shutdown? Or something else? The reality is that you don't know and while you feel fit to criticise me for having an opinion, you fail to see the irony of you doing pretty much the same thing on this thread!

Doubting the behaviour of someone with the misfortune of discovering the body, it adds nothing to discussions on this case, especially as that person was completely exhonerated.

Completely exonerated? Exonerated of what exactly? When and by whom?

Gussie Scrotch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121739254#Comment_121739254

Given the subject that we are debating it is perfectly reasonable to question the behaviour of any of the known actors in this drama. Bailey may be completely innocent also but his every word, action and expression has been microscopically analysed on this thread.

Shirley was not only the person who discovered the body of Sophie, she was a known associate of the victim and also a person who was at the scene of the crime at the time of the attack.

In addition, she was the partner of a man who had a number of ongoing disputes with Sophie and who, curiously, claimed to have seen or heard nothing of a violent attack virtually on her doorstep.

So it is logical to ask why she felt the need to rush off to the dump in the circumstances

tomhammer..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121731781#Comment_121731781

Diaagree

It seems an obvious reason the alibi evidence would be fabricated was to secure confessions and a conviction

That doesn't mean it wasn't clear to AGS that Bailey wasn't the murderer

It's also clear to me that he's the likely killer based on the accumulated knowledge and circumstancial evidence

I also acknowledge that the case isn't proven at all and there was insufficient evidence

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121739788#Comment_121739788

You disagree with what part exactly?

tomhammer..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121739843#Comment_121739843

"If it was clear that Bailey was the murderer then the DPP wouldn't have taken the unusual step of completely shredding the Garda case. Plus members of AGS wouldn't have felt the need to destroy actual evidence and try fabricating their own evidence!"

It would be no surprise to me if corrupt AGS fabricated eyewitness testimony to secure confessions and a conviction against the prime suspect

It seems quite an obvious thing to do

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121739788#Comment_121739788

Guards are on tape - not knowing they were being recorded, saying they had a weak case against Bailey, and that was when they were still counting Marie Farrell as an eye witness.

How then could it clear to them he was the murderer.

Not one record of them saying we know its Bailey (or some expletive representing him) because of X. And by X there I mean some reason they couldn't include in their case to the DPP.

It's all very strange.

tobefrank321

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121739396#Comment_121739396

There is no evidence her car was not searched, unless someone can post it.

That she was waved through the crime scene was of course a mistake, but she was hardly an expert on crime scene preservation nor was the person who waved her through. Mistakes were made, no evidence here of deliberate contamination, unless that is your specific allegation?

Her car was at the end of the road full of rubbish. The most logical step would have been to go to the dump, not return to the house and unload everything or leave it for a day or two in her car. She actually acted logically, and there is nothing to indicate anything suspicious in her behaviour.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121739998#Comment_121739998

What do you think Baileys defence team would make of this if he did go to trial?

Gussie Scrotch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121739998#Comment_121739998

I made/make no specific allegation(s)

My point is that it is perfectly reasonable to discuss the actions of anyone involved in this event, however peripheral.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121739998#Comment_121739998

No the logical thing to do would have been not to allow possible evidence go to dump without a proper check.

In the time allotted before Shirley went on to the dump there was simply no way a car full of rubbish could have been properly checked for evidence.

If that means leaving the bags in the car and backing the car up the driveway or the Guards taking the bags - there are options. It was not the only option nor the most logical one.

tobefrank321

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121740020#Comment_121740020

I doubt they would even bring it up. Not sure I recall Bailey accusing the neighbours of being involved in the murder (although I could be wrong on that one). He was careful to name people who were dead such as her husband or bantry garda, and of course stray horses!

Its irrelevant who he'd accuse anyways, the man was a renowned liar, who reveled in being both a suspect and supposedly innocent and seemed to incriminate and distance himself from the murder at different times.