Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed. **Threadbans in OP**

bjsc

Just checked Pat Hegarty's statement. He says he tried to call her a couple of times on Monday morning but there was no answer. It would be useful to know what time he tried to call but that isn't mentioned.

flanna01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121869549#Comment_121869549

The piece of plastic with a red substance on it?

Surely the red substance was identified? Blood, ketchup, paint, wine.....?

The suspect hair samples..? From the bins? Possible contents of a wiped comb / hair brush?

If the French didn't make a big deal out it, neither of the above items can be linked to Bailey.

bjsc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121872000#Comment_121872000

The 3 items are described as follows in Geraldine O'Donnell's statement (she was the forensic scientist).

P.J.17 Sample of hair packed in a folded Garda form C58 packed in a sealed paper envelope labelled P.J.17 hair sample from suspect 26/12/96 Pat Joy D/Garda

P.J.18 Sample of hair and a red substance on a piece of plastic packed in a sealed bag labelled P.J.18 check for human blood, possible hair dye. 26/12/96 Pat Joy D/Garda

P.J.19 Sample of hair packed in a sheet of white paper which was further packed in a sealed paper envelope labelled P.J.19 hair sample from suspect 26/12/96 Pat Joy D/Garda.

They appear to have been received in the Forensic Science Laboratory on 30th December 1996 but were never analysed.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121872092#Comment_121872092

Samples 17 and 19 were labelled "from suspect" but sample 18 was not. Does this mean 18 was from the the victim?

bjsc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121872202#Comment_121872202

Genuinely I have no idea but my best guess would be that as P.J.18 was the middle of the three they all came from the same source. Additionally all the samples from the victim were already accounted for.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121872092#Comment_121872092

So we have potential DNA from a suspect but it's never been analysed?

bjsc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121872264#Comment_121872264

Without knowing where it came from and what was its relevance we are in the dark. It would appear though that, at some point, the lab was told not to bother with it as it is not mentioned again. Rather like the blood stained bed sheet.

Green Peter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121872264#Comment_121872264

Omg, you've just cracked it, where have you been all this time. Legend

bjsc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121872349#Comment_121872349

Ha ha.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121872349#Comment_121872349

I was aware of a DNA sample on the boot not having been tested thoroughlyfor DNA. I was unaware that the hairs were untested.

flanna01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121872289#Comment_121872289

I may be reading this incorrectly... Are we saying that the hair samples from 'a suspect' were not analysed??

Really...?

In what circumstances were the hair samples collected? Why was the sample identified as from a suspect? Which suspect?

bjsc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121872380#Comment_121872380

Believe me I wish I knew. And the answer may lie in files that have never been released by the Garda. All we have is what I've described. But 26th December is very early to be nominating someone as a suspect.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121872400#Comment_121872400

I guess that everyone was a suspect at that time? Didn't they say 50 at one point..

bjsc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121872447#Comment_121872447

Yes. But they didn't take samples from all of them. And the other suspect samples they did take all appear to have been taken on or after 1st January 1997. Which begs the question who was a suspect at that very early stage.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121868187#Comment_121868187

Could it have been rammed open by the killer(s) (on some drug) to open it and the noise attracted Sophie's attention? A bit of a long shot I know..

flanna01

The location is remote, in fact it could be deemed as the backend of nowhere.

Sophie's cottage was down a passage off the main road, you would easily pass it by if you didn't know it existed.

Given the time of the year, and the associated temperatures, you would be hard pressed to be out walking around that area at night without a very good reason or purpose.

The fact (as far as we know), is that not one jot of evidence was found at the crime scene... This is bewildering to say the least.. No hair, no fibres, no skin under the nails, no blood (apart from the victims), no nothing... Like the scene was cleaned up.

The mountain of media and national press that swarmed into the area must have been overwhelming, the eyes of the country and further afield were firmly fixed on the on-going investigation.

Everybody knew their neighbours, it was a one horse town. What if one of the original suspects had some pull with the local Gards? Please don't insult my intelligence and tell me the local bigwigs don't have some of the Gards in there pockets... What if hair samples were just taken to show crime scene compliance?

Why the mad panic to hone in on Ian Bailey so soon into the investigation..? His name was leaked to the press - maybe as a distraction?

Could incriminating evidence have been removed from the crime scene?

What prompted the piece of plastic with a red substance on it to be seized and placed in an evidence bag? How was this item seen to be relevant?

The suspects hair samples, again, placed in evidence bags and never seen again... Did the 'new chief suspect' Ian Bailey take the attention away from these samples, and maybe the original suspect???

Something not right here - And it's looking like the Gards knew more than they were letting on.

MonkieSocks

On 10 February 1997 while in custody Bailey willingly gave a samples for analysis.

tobefrank321

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121869227#Comment_121869227

This is ridiculous. Here's the relevant part of Healys statement.

I spoke to Ms. Foster and informed her that nothing could be removed from the crime scene without investigation. She agreed to a search of the vehicle and the removal of the bags for further examination.

So you are doubting a search took place of the car? How long do you think it realistically takes to search a car?

tobefrank321

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121869260#Comment_121869260

Nope.

flanna01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121872825#Comment_121872825

Not referring to the hair samples Bailey gave.

Zola1000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121872400#Comment_121872400

Hi. Can I ask , in reference to information having never been released, what might be the legality around holding files and never having them released, is this appropriate AGS procedures? would have felt the DPP would hold power and can request all information be provided to them and decide on all information being released.

bjsc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121872975#Comment_121872975

The normal procedure is for the police to prepare a file for the DPP. The DPP will then make a decision as to whether there is sufficient evidence to warrant a charge. Now obviously when the police submit the file it is because they want to prosecute the suspect and therefore generally it will only tend to contain such evidence as supports a person's guilt. If the decision is made to charge then the defendant is entitled to full disclosure of all the evidence the police possess. This must include anything which goes towards his or her innocence or contradicts the police case. As no one was ever charged in Ireland the Garda have never been legally obliged to disclose all the evidence that they possess.

It was the evidence that the DPP rejected in the case against Ian Bailey that forms almost the entirety of the file that they handed over to the French authorities I.e. the evidence that the Garda believe indicates his guilt and that the DPP said, on more than one occasion, was nowhere sufficient enough to warrant a charge of murder.

Mackinac

Regards the kitchen- If you were standing cutting a slice of bread from that loaf what would you be looking at through the window? Does it look straight out on to the neighbours lane?

bjsc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121873283#Comment_121873283

It looks out towards the little stone barn.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121873283#Comment_121873283

KITCHEN W.png

KITCHEN.jpg

...Edit;

It doesn't look straight onto the lane to his house. But anyone accessing his field or barn would pass within feet of that window! It was the only way to access that field and barn.

Edit 2;

The other window in the kitchen looks out over the front lawn towards the gate in the lane.

Mackinac

I’ve always suspected whatever happened started down at the gate but I wonder if she was standing cutting the loaf and saw someone at the stone outhouse. By the time she would have put her boots on and caught up they might have been at the gate.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121873352#Comment_121873352

"It doesn't look straight onto the lane to his house. But anyone accessing his field or barn would pass within feet of that window! It was the only way to access that field and barn."

This may be incorrect, I believe that at the time the barn and field could be accessed by going through the gate into the bottom of Sophie's lawn and up across the front of her house. I believe a neighbour friend of Alfie's kept a horse or horses on Alfie's land at the time that would need tending.

Mackinac

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121873701#Comment_121873701

A number of people seemed to have access to that outhouse - so it must have been unlocked and always easily accessible.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121873757#Comment_121873757

That in itself is a likely cause for trouble between those involved..

bjsc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121873701#Comment_121873701

When Sophie bought the house she believed the barn was included in the purchase. It subsequently turned out that it actually belonged to Alfie and that he had a right of way across the back of Sophie's house to access it.

The field to the front of Sophie's house was hers but the field to the left of her house, as viewed from the road, was Alfie's and Leo Bolger had moved his horses there shortly before the murder. The field infront of that belongs to Finbarr Hellen.

There were 3 large gates. One at the bottom of the track, where Sophie's body was found. One leading off the track into the field in front of Sophie's house and one across the right of way at the back of her house. There was also a small gate by the side of the barn which gave access into Alfie's field.

At the time of the murder the only people who regularly accessed the area would have been members of the Hellen family, Leo Bolger, Alfie Lyons and Shirley Foster.