Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed. **Threadbans in OP**

jesuisjuste

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121883321#Comment_121883321

Got it, we're aligned, viable can be construed different ways, I agree with the 50-100 "potential" suspects, I also agree with the way less number of "likely" suspects. Bailey probably wasn't originally to high on the first list, but he definitely helped move himself up on the second.

tomhammer..

All we have right now is a cold case review and a dead main suspect

Bjsc has shed some light on the case but nothing substantial pointing in a particular direction imo

I believe that the original garda theory and main suspect were probably the correct ones and also that the cold case review team started with an open mind and later continued to focus on bailey

It's also possible the last paragraph is entirely wrong

Day Lewin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121883558#Comment_121883558

Well, it would be nice to be able to prove any of this. Any little thing, that could be called "substantial" and that might "point in a particular direction"

Because currently, nothing does!

I pin my hopes on a witness - someone around the area who adds a significant tiny scrap of information. That, or technology getting new results from testing the few bits of forensic that do exist.

tomhammer..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121883754#Comment_121883754

Anything substantial that points in a particular direction would be useful

There's Bailey who i believe is the likely killer

I also accept that Bailey may not be the killer

jesuisjuste

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121883754#Comment_121883754

There is still some evidence that has not been publicly explained, and there are still some leads that do not appear to have been pursued in depth. The most glaring example is the 'unknown male' DNA, which is not Bailey. A very very high percentage of cold cases are solved based on decades old DNA samples.

If one believes it is Bailey that did it, that is one thing, but in a court of law imo there would be a very low chance of conviction if there are no forensics from the suspect at the scene and there is forensics of another unknown male that is not the suspect (and also by DNA familiarity is not the victims family). They already didn't feel they had enough to get beyond reasonable doubt before this evidence even turned up. Justice for Sophie requires the pursuit, and investigation/elimination of this suspect imo.

Zola1000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121884441#Comment_121884441

This is very well said. Reality is we can't keep focusing on the one suspect. The cold case review cannot take review this case successfully following the original path as it's more or less heading the same way back to DPP, not enough evidence. The enhanced DNA of any of existing evidence we can only really pin our hopes on. I still nearly fail to see how any of original witnesses or of any use unless DNA profile brings them into view. But this unknown male sample would be significant if it can be reenhanced.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121883061#Comment_121883061

To me that thread looks more like a sneaker sole not a boot or normal shoe?

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885156#Comment_121885156

I think I've had wellies with tread like that.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885300#Comment_121885300

Fair enough mine have a more arrow type pattern.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121884441#Comment_121884441

Highly speculative of course, but I think Bailey must have known that his health would lead his life coming to an end. And for somebody always wanting to be in the centre of things, he would probably, speculatively, made some form of death bed confession to somebody. However nobody came forward, nothing such happened.

I also tend to think Bailey could have done it, but there is no proof at all, and certainly not enough for a conviction, or to convict anybody else.

All other theories are as good as Bailey.

This is all regardless if Bailey beat up Jules or drank Whiskey or did both at the same time while cutting down a tree or killing a turkey for Christmas. It all doesn't prove murder.

Day Lewin

And if us armchair sleuths can speculate about the identity/brand of the shoeprint, surely to goodness the Guards could too; and they must have - or should have - inspected every shoe belonging to every likely "possible suspect".

And this is something that members of a family could also report on - "our brother has that kind of shoes" sort of thing.

Or "My boyfriend had shoes like that but he threw them away just last week..."

bjsc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121882373#Comment_121882373

There is no evidence of more than one attacker. But I'm not sure what you mean by 2 different stages of blood.

I do believe some people know more than they have ever said.

Zola1000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885405#Comment_121885405

Yes this all my might seem likely approach taken by guards or most likely not taken given with how evidence has been handled. To me it mirrors similar to that of Bailey's coat that they took in as evidence in February 1997 I believe. Not withstanding that it could be one of two or three coats he owned. Similarly having number of pairs of shoes , boots , getting rid of certain pairs worn at time.

Bailey being frequenter he was in pubs and shops and most likely the odd charity shops market stalls and he would have a pair or second hand pairs.

Mackinac

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885405#Comment_121885405

There is a database with thousands of shoes on it used especially for footwear identification from crime scenes.

bjsc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121882323#Comment_121882323

Firstly the cold case review.

The whole purpose of a cold case review is to start from the beginning and investigate the case as if you were there from Day 1. What you should never do, but what I fear may be the approach the current review are taking, is to just reinvestigate an existing suspect. By taking such a narrow approach you risk missing new opportunities.

I do think the original investigation focused all their attention on one suspect at a very early stage. By doing this you risk becoming target fixated and dismissing evidence or witnesses who contradict your point of view as being wrong or mistaken whilst believing implicitly everything and everyone supporting your theory.

The gate actually was not lost. The Garda and scientists decided at some point that it was of no further evidential value. It was offered back to those who owned the 3 houses who, understandably, didn't want it so it was destroyed. The trouble with this approach is that with evidence recovery and analysis techniques developing so fast you never know what other opportunities will exist in the future.

Once a witnesses is discredited it is almost impossible to rely on them from an evidentiary point of view. A good defence lawyer will always fall back on the "well you lied before why should we believe you're telling the truth now"

Hope that helps.

B

jesuisjuste

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885156#Comment_121885156

To be comprehensive, there are a few different types of Doc Martens threads, this was the closest I could see. Hard to say how well it matches, but it is definitely a fairly close pattern. I would imagine there are many other similar boots and brands with similar patterns, but you would think overall the print can reasonably eliminate perhaps 90 percent of shoe types, especially some runners etc. Since this is a rural area and muddy fields & gravely roads etc. there is probably a lot more boot wearers than in other places. It doesn't look like Sophie's, but she seemed to have a bunch of footwear, all was presumably checked.

Not sure if there are any pictures where you can see footwear of any of the people in the vicinity in the following days, I think there were some of Bailey alright, is it possible to see his shoes? What about all the other individuals in the early photographs. I imagine the footwear he was wearing when he arrived at the scene and over the following days didn't match, or again we never would have heard the end of it.

bjsc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121881744#Comment_121881744

1. I am sure the Garda hold a vast amount of evidence that we are not privy. Much it will be irrelevant but they will also be holding onto anything that contradicts their long held belief that Ian Bailey is guilty. After all the evidence they released to the French authorities was that which the DPP deemed insufficient to justify a prosecution.

I have the exhibit list which the Garda sent to France but it is either incomplete or evidence of an extremely investigation.

Whether there is ever a resolution to this is a difficult question. One possibility is that, with Ian Bailey's death, the Garda will quietly close down the cold case review and leave everyone with the impression that they believe him to be guilty.

Even if they do unearth new evidence and identify new suspects the possibility of it ever coming to trial, given the amount of publicity and controversy the case has attracted over the years, is remote.

Hope this helps

B

bjsc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121882410#Comment_121882410

I have never seen this before and it is certainly not included in the file of evidence. It looks like something that was subsequently mocked up. It is also vastly different to the scratches described and drawn by the Guards

bjsc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121882541#Comment_121882541

Absolutely

Zola1000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885563#Comment_121885563

@bjsc. Thanks again for this and clarification. Ok again possibly I'm back at parts of where I was before. Ok can I ask few more questions sorry to be directing just to you but others might also interject.

Can a decision not be taken at high level within the cold case review team to disregard the previous approach of one angle towards one suspect and expand other avenues. It just makes no sense given the original DPP decisions unless of course not withstanding significant new evidence that may come to light or have been obtained by cold case team.

Also have you read that there was no evidence of garda mal practice in this case etc. like I just don't understand why certain members were allowed tamper with statements and give drugs to manipulate another witness to corrupt bailey. Like do you think internally the guards had other information..we don't have?

I'm also trying to allude to postings ages back here which alleges Garda corruption in form of protecting someone known to police force. I know it's extremely sensitive and I'm not asking to be purporting such claims..but it just seems some of lengths they were going to was questionable and have you seen such malpractice as normal information gathering techniques

bjsc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121882941#Comment_121882941

The problem with footwear impressions is that it is not the tread pattern that makes them identifiable but the wear and damage on the sole. For comparison and identification it is therefore vital to get the very best images and/or casting. In this case they did try to cast the mark but, for a number of reasons, the cast did not set and the mark was destroyed in the process.

We also do not know how many people had been past the body before the photo was taken and the exhibit list does not make it clear whose shoes, other than those of Ian Bailey, were seized for comparison. As it appears to then have been quietly forgotten I imagine that nothing matched.

B

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885156#Comment_121885156

I’ve had desert boots in the 80s with a thread like it- they were more expensive than standard desert boots - can’t remember where I purchased them but the sole was a weird composite material - but they had that type of pattern

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885616#Comment_121885616

It’s a pity they didn’t just start again - the DPP file to be submitted is believed to just focus on Bailey - IMHO, that’s a missed opportunity and a waste of taxpayers money-as long as there’s other unexplained crime scene evidence such as unidentified DNA, then there’s a clear possibility that someone else is responsible

tomhammer..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885820#Comment_121885820

Anything's possible

Whether likely is a different matter

jesuisjuste

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885841#Comment_121885841

Do you think the DNA provides a reasonable doubt?

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885477#Comment_121885477

If you have access to statements by Gardas Prendeville and Byrne and Dr.O'Connor, I'm sure they all stated that some blood on the victim appeared 'fresher' or 'wetter' than other blood around the scene. Now the blood they say was fresher was likely pooled around the head and face, whereas other blood, like that on the gate would have been thinner and dried quicker and be darker in colour. But if you could give an indication of how long pooled blood under the conditions would remain fresh and red as opposed to dry and brown.

"There is no evidence of more than one attacker", but I've long held a thought that the first encounter was with a person that Sophie recognised and was comfortable enough to confront outside her house, maybe a woman or a young male. The confrontation turned into a scuffle and then a full on prolonged fight along the gate. Probably not a 6'3 ex rugby player in his prime, as it would be over very quick. A blow to the head with the first weapon felled Sophie and her attecker fled. A family member returned, a partner or a parent, and finished the job with the rock and block?

bjsc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885820#Comment_121885820

Absolutely

bjsc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885905#Comment_121885905

Sorry I know I promised a few days ago to look at these statements I've been up to my eyeballs. I will get back to you.

jesuisjuste

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885905#Comment_121885905

Are these Garda still alive? Given they now would have almost 30 years more experience, seen countless further examples of blood in crimes and accidents, and assuming they have also seen evidence in further murders. I would think they would have Sophie's murder burned in their memory given their youth and inexperience at that time. It would be great if someone asked them to revisit their recollections of the freshness of the blood at the scene, and what they now think about its recency vs the gate and elsewhere and to get that on record and in the public domain.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121885639#Comment_121885639

It's not a Garda sketch.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/sophie-toscan-du-plantier-case-new-witness-provides-sketch-of-scratches-he-saw-on-ian-baileys-hand-in-december-1996/a1686235150.html

Sorry link won't work, but this is the jist;

Quote;

"The sketch of the injured hand was submitted this year by a new witness named Roger Brooke, who lives in Italy.

He has provided a statement to gardaí, saying: “On the evening of the 23 December 1996, I entered the Courtyard bar in Schull, West Cork.

“I spotted Ian Bailey at the other side of the room. I went over to wish him a Merry Christmas. I approached him from his left side, and after wishing him well, I looked down and was shocked to see that the back of his left hand was criss-crossed with deep and obviously recently-incurred cuts and scratches.

“This of course prompted me to ask him what on earth he had done to his hand. His answer was, ‘I was killing turkeys’. I remember thinking that it was strange to be killing turkeys just before Christmas Day. That is usually done a week earlier.”

Mr Brooke now tells the Irish Independent: “I had known Bailey to a small degree when I was living between Ballydehob and Schull. He always struck me as a fairly strange individual who seemed to have a very high opinion of himself for no particularly good reason.

“I did not make a statement to gardaí regarding the wounds to Bailey’s hand/s in 1996 or 1997 due to personal reasons.”

Mr Brooke eventually left West Cork for elsewhere in Ireland.

In 2014 Mr Brooke walked into a police station in Stroud, Gloucestershire, and made his first statement.

He also contacted gardaí and left his details around 2015.

“The reason was I read a report that Ian Bailey had told gardaí that cutting a Christmas tree was responsible (for his scratches), which was not what he told me."

When contacted for comment, Mr Bailey told the Irish Independent: “The name Roger Brooke sort of rings a bell. But I am going to make life easy for you. I’ve got no comment.”