Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed. **Threadbans in OP**

EdHoven

No. Only two tips in West Cork. And Derryconnell would have been about 30 minutes away wither that car and driver. So Shirley bwould have needed to leave before 12.30 p.m. to have any chance of getting there. Of course she could have gone, found it closed, and brought the rubbish back, fly-tipped it somewhere or brought it to a friend's house to burn it. Or the friend could have come later to collect the rubbish and take away and burn. Making him an accomplice...

Also in her statement she said she got up, put on the fires, put on the breakfast then decided at 10 to go to the tip. She didn't say when the rubbish was loaded into the car or who did it. Alfie had a bandaged hand so maybe he couldn't drive or handle the rubbish. It seems strange she mentioned details like the fire and the breakfast but not the loading of the rubbish.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120048927#Comment_120048927

"Collection of domestic refuse" could it be collection of domestic rubbish from bins at the end of the boreen?

Or a local bottle bank recycling facility in Toormore or Goleen?

There is no way she was heading to a landfill site 11 miles away with a bit of rubbish.

Gussie Scrotch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120048907#Comment_120048907

1) Alfie knew Sophie.

2) Alfie was present at the crime scene, at the time of the murder.

3) Alfie and Sophie had ongoing disputes over access etc. It is not uncommon for trivial but simmering disputes between neighbours to escalate into violence.

4) Alfie had an injured hand, the morning of the murder.

5) Incredibly, neither alfie nor Shirley heard anything, despite being less than 100 yards away from a vicious, prolonged attack on a quiet. still night.

6) Shirley's visit to the dump.

FishOnABike

There is no way she was heading to a landfill site 11 miles away with a bit of rubbish.

@chooseusername Why not? Rubbish has to be disposed of. With reduced service / opening times over Christmas and New Year it's not unusual to get rid of what rubbish is there rather than leave it for another week or two at a time of year when more rubbish than usual is created.

I wouldn't dismiss it as just 'a bit of rubbish'. Even a small hatchback boot can hold several full large bin bags. I think their car was an estate model and could certainly have fit more than 'a bit of rubbsh'.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120044739#Comment_120044739

If that report is accurate, there's feckall credible evidence against Bailey.

EdHoven

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120049052#Comment_120049052

I think you are confusing things. That was one advert I divided in two because I photoed my laptop screen. There was no bin collection on the 23rd so she can't have been bringing stuff to the end of the lane. I doubt they would have bins anyway. I don't have a bin now and go to my local amenity about once a fortnight with bags. I kind of doubt it was a bottle bank. She said "take the rubbish to the dump" in her sworn statement. As to how much the car could carry...quite a lot.

Xander10

is the exact location that the famous bottle of French wine was found, known to the public?

champchamp

Apologies if this was discussed already, I'm only seeing it today - there's 3 different lines of inquiry mentioned in this article that I was unaware of and I thought I had read everything about this case and also looked at both documentaries and listened to the podcast.

Is this new info (the French speaking guy (who's not French)! with scratches on his face that is now Marie Farrell's mystery man. The TWO? Frenchmen living in hiding in the area in fear of criminal French gangs (who Sophie met)) and some BS about a possible jealous wife?

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/crime/garda-trace-french-speaker-scratches-28729258

tinytobe

Yes, there was another lead mentioned about a Ford Fiesta driver, - apparently either French or Mexican? I found that one interesting, as a Fiesta was reported speeding in the area in the early hours of the morning, possibly after the murder.

However, its a bit late to solve this case, I'd say. Getting strong enough evidence for a conviction is very hard by now.

EdHoven

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120050049#Comment_120050049

There are too many suspects and too many dodgy characters as witnesses. In a way you can see why the guards said "sod it" and just make Bailey the perp.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120049844#Comment_120049844

" There was no bin collection on the 23rd so she can't have been bringing stuff to the end of the lane."

You could also argue that the landfill site was closed, so she couldn't be bringing stuff there either.

"As to how much the car could carry...quite a lot."

Yes it is an estate car, but as you ca see in your own picture there is nothing visible through the glass of the rear doors.

Also if there was a sizable amount of rubbish you would expect Alfie to accompany her.

I don't have access to her sworn statement where she says "take rubbish to the dump" all I have is the statement where she says " while travelling from my home to Schull at 2:20 pm approx.....";

statement.jpg

But there are other statements because she begins this one "further to my previous statements...."

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120049080#Comment_120049080

Ah come on.

We all agree that the evidence against Bailey is circumstantial but that there is just rubbish.

Go 100 yards from your house in the middle of the night and make a racket, see if anyone asleep is woken up.

The injured hand is nothing as it was determined by a doctor to be an old injury.

The access dispute I'll give you.

As for Shirley going to the dump, they may have examined her car before hand and as I said earlier landfills are notorious for not making things disappear. A fire would be much better for that.

It was also mentioned here that the Gardai determined that Alfie was too frail to weild the large block that was found.

How does any of what you typed trump a man with a history of violence towards women, a big strong man capable of killing someone with the block, a man with an unexplained absence for a few hours on the night in question which only came to light later, a man that had a bonfire a few days later, a man who had scratches that he claimed he got from a tree and the only people who can corroborate that were his partner and her daughters, a man who arrived at the scene very early and was acting on an unusual manner at the scene according to Gardai that were there, a man who admitted the murder to various people unsolicited, a man who had strange sexual fantasies as revealed in his liable cases.

How does anything you posted about Alfie Lyons trump that?

EdHoven

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120051033#Comment_120051033

The question is "beyond reasonable doubt". That a case can be made against Alfie shows reasonable doubt on anyone else being the perp in the absence of direct evidence. Alfie's only defences are he was to weak to lift the block. Personally I doubt the block was use for the "coup de grâce". Why would the killer lift it off the head again? And that he and Shirley gave mutual alibis. Well they would.

Can you substantiate you claim about the doctor/dog bite? Or is it another "fact" out of thin air?

Bailey might have had a fire but it is possible Shirley not getting to the tip in time gave him Alfie's stuff to burn. As someone else said if she claimed to have gone to the tip any time after 1 p.m. that cannot be true. I'd like to see her questioned under caution as to what she took, who loaded the car, why she drove on her own (despite having an L plate), where she took the rubbish (because it wasn't the tip given the established timeline).

Driving unaccompanied was illegal back then. I pulled up news articles from the Southern Star from 1996 where people had been fined. In this instance we are to believe several guards allowed an unaccompanied learned to drive off under their noses.

What were Alfie's plans for that day? Pot-terring about?

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120051811#Comment_120051811

No one is trying to prove anything "beyond a reasonable doubt" here.

No one has even been brought to court in this nevermind anything being proven "beyond a reasonable doubt"

All I'm doing is asking people who claim there is much more evidence against Alfie Lyons than against Ian Bailey to back it up.

And all I'm getting in return is stuff about Shirley going to the dump and driving with L plates.

Do people really think that the Gardai didn't look into Alfie and Shirley Lyons?

Of course they did and what they found was that they were not suspects.

Just because we the public don't know every piece of detail about what the Gardai did in their investigations into Alfie and Shirley Lyons doesn't mean that they didn't investigate them.

kirk.

I was thinking today about the lie detector test and whether bailey had ever offered to take one or taken one

It can be interesting as some offer to take it and never in fact do

Google then brings up the following articles

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/ian-bailey-offered-take-lie-24958933

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/ian-bailey-turns-down-offer-25162498

So it looks like bailey indeed "offered" to take the test

Then when the test was "offered" to him he was too busy

Make of that what you will

I usually consider the offering to take a test but then in fact never taking a test as suspicious even though it proves nothing evidentially

kirk.

Bailey had raised the issue of the lie detector test first

Then somehow he was too busy Even though they would bring the test to him.

Also he had little to lose as the innocent don't fail tests while the guilty may indeed pass

https://southfloridapolygraph.com/can-nerves-influence-a-lie-detector-test/

Just one more suspicious thing about Bailey and it's a long list

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120052009#Comment_120052009

Do people really think that the Gardai didn't look into Alfie and Shirley Lyons?

Of course they did and what they found was that they were not suspects.

Just because we the public don't know every piece of detail about what the Gardai did in their investigations into Alfie and Shirley Lyons doesn't mean that they didn't investigate them.

Did the gardai allow for the car to be used by the Lyons' to dispose of items in the dump prior to the gardai knowing the cause of death (through autopsy) or if anything of potential evidence was taken from either the murder scene or the house?

odyssey06

Or maybe he thought better of it when he became more aware of how dodgy lie detectors are.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45736631

kirk.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120052117#Comment_120052117

Not really , more like he knew he would likely fail

There's a long list of people who have offered to take the test but in fact never do

The offer to take the test wins them positive publicity but for some reason they don't actually want to take it

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120052009#Comment_120052009

The Gardai allowed Shirley drive off from the scene with a car load of rubbish soon after she discovered the body - do you honestly think they had time to investigate Alfie and Shirley during that 1 hour or 2. They didn't investigate them and didn't treat them as suspects - that's the issue.

It would appear Shirley really needed to get to the dump and was undisturbed and unemotional about discovering a body. Alfie's and Shirleys behaviour that morning seemed very rehearsed - especially the fact they say it never even entered their heads that the dead body could be Sophie ( their only neighbour), Despite the body being of slight build. Alfie going to knock on her door to tell her is odd - would his first thought not have been that it was Sophie lying there. It seems he wasn't afraid that the murderer was still around.

Alfie had more motive to kill Sophie than Bailey and should have been treated as a suspect .

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120052124#Comment_120052124

They arent admissible as evidence for a reason. It is a lose lose situation to be involved with them.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120052115#Comment_120052115

Yes Shirley went to the dump at lunchtime - a few hours after discovering the body. Crazy that she was allowed leave with the car.

kirk.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120052133#Comment_120052133

Sure , yet somehow bailey wanted to be involved with them and then he didn't

As posted above they are little risk to the innocent

kirk.

Somehow bailey with all his legal training and experience of the law only learned of the inefficacy of lie detector tests in that short space of time between offering to take a test and then declining because "he was too busy"

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120052145#Comment_120052145

I linked a BBC article showing risks to the innocent.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45736631

The article you linked to would not inspire confidence in me as an innocent person to have any involvement with the process.

"Theoretically, nervousness may possibly cause you to be unsuccessful in a lie detector test, yet a polygraph specialist will surely understand your state of mind and disregard the nervousness factor."

Really?

They arent valid evidence for a reason.

As far as Im concerned nothing suspicious about thinking better of engaging with such a process.

Someone in a high profile case and documentaries thinking no one could provide a lie detector? Doesnt seem like a safe bet.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120052168#Comment_120052168

If he was that much an expert he could have researched how to beat it

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2015-doug-williams-war-on-lie-detector/

The National Academy of Sciences, however, in a 2002 report, found a “lack of understanding of the processes that underlie polygraph responses” and concluded that the quality of polygraph research “falls far short of what is desirable.” These criticisms, according to many psychologists, remain true. Some of the nation’s most notorious spies, including Aldrich Ames and Ana Montes, passed polygraphs. In a 1998 Supreme Court decision, Justice Clarence Thomas wrote, “There is simply no consensus that polygraph evidence is reliable,” and most judges have agreed.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120052115#Comment_120052115

We have no idea what interaction there was between the Lyons and Gardai from the time the body was found to the time Shirley went to the dump.

And because of that lack of information people have jumped to the conclusion that Alfie and Shirley Lyons have more evidence against them for the murder than Ian Bailey.

Just think about how stupid that is.

Don't Chute!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120049080#Comment_120049080

1) They were neighbors

2) They were neighbors

3) It has been said by lots of different people that the attack was extremely violent. Way too violent in my opinion to have been over a stupid dispute about a gate.

4) It’s been said that this was an old injury.

5) I don’t see anything unusual about that at all.

6) Why would she fill up the car with items from the crime scene knowing that she would then be the person to find the body and raise the alarm and the car would be just sitting there with Gardai all over the place? People dismiss the fact that Bailey had a fire in his garden but believe this bullshit? Sorry but it doesn’t make sense to me.

bemak

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120052135#Comment_120052135

Crazy that she wanted to go. If someone was murdered on my road, with the body still in situ, the last thing I'd want to do is go to the dump. What's the rush

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120052271#Comment_120052271

You're defending the actions of AGS in looking into the Lyons' prior to them taking rubbish to the dump yet you admit that we don't know what AGS did.

The reality is that if Shirley took stuff in the car to the dump, whoever from AGS had absolutely no way of knowing if the material to be dumped was relevant to the murder. How could they have given that they hadn't established the manner of Sophie's brutal death nor had they established if any evidence was missing from the house or immediate crime scene.