Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed. **Threadbans in OP**

robwen

https://www.irishcentral.com/news/jim-sheridan-sophie-toscan-du-plantier

Using fiction to question reality, Sheridan's new docu-drama will see the famous Irish filmmaker become the protagonist who is accompanied by the character of Toscan du Plantier. 

The two will accompany the viewer through the complex details of the case, debunking the official versions and convenient truths, revealing new clues that could potentially change the course of the case.

"Call it obsession. Call it anger. Call it justice. Call it what you want. I am still on a quest for Sophie," Sheridan said in a statement. 

Sheridan has teamed up with Irish writer and director David Merriman for the new docu-drama. 

The documentary parts of Re-creation will be shot in Ireland, France, and the US, while the drama parts will be shot on a sound stage in Luxembourg.

The production is supported by Screen Ireland, Film Fund Luxembourg, and Eurimages and will be made available for theatrical release in spring 2024. 

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120647187#Comment_120647187

Will events overtake him?

kirk.

It's great how Sheridan and bailey apparently have all this information and clues

Seems in reality they're only getting publicity on the back of her death

saabsaab

It seems that DNA analysis is taking another leap forward. Will it finally be able to trace 'other' DNA present?

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/scientists-can-now-pull-human-dna-from-the-air-and-water-raising-privacy-questions-180982192/

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120651003#Comment_120651003

Tracking animals and tracking humans is rather different. And animals mostly move around because of finding food. But regarding humans it's probably impossible to find, if the DNA was at the murder site, before the murder or after the murder. The situation is even worse if the time of death isn't known or approximately known. Thus anybody who was visiting most likely left DNA just by opening and closing the gate. Also, you'd find DNA of say person A on an item which person B brought to the site, and person A was never there. I would say it's still tricky.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120659275#Comment_120659275

True but person B would have to be connected to person A or else there would be some explaining to do.

EdHoven

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120647187#Comment_120647187

Sounds like Pushing Daisies. Murder victim brought back to life to solve murder. Perhaps he'll get Anna Friel to play Sophie

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120659510#Comment_120659510

The problem in this case is since the murder weapon was a cavity block which anybody could have touched at any time, it's hard to link it to anybody specific, even if DNA was found on that block.

I'll be easier if the murder weapon would have been a knife or a firearm owned by somebody specific and that somebody's DNA or fingerprints were on it and secured in the aftermath of the murder. In that case the murder could be solved even 30 or 40 years later on.

I don't think this crime will ever be solved, unless there is maybe a deathbed confession. The cold case review is just to clear the conscience of the totally bungled up police investigation back then. And the rest is left to people like Jim Sheridan to make money on.

Witnesses may remember this or that which may be credible or not, so many years have gone by, other potential witnesses have passed away and anybody visiting could have touched the cavity block. Bailey, Bolger, Alfie, Shirley, anybody.....

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120660716#Comment_120660716

Modern methods may yet find DNA on her clothes, in which case that could only be Sophie herself or her attacker, and anyone with access to the clothes after the murder could be eliminated.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120663379#Comment_120663379

I would say, yes to that. DNA can most likely tell us everything. However that still doesn't give us any answers who killed her.

To me a lot of questions seem to come up: Suppose that German musician Karl-Heinz Wolney gave her a hug in the pub, or she was was wearing the same clothes when she may have met Bruno in Paris? Maybe she met Bruno before departing for Ireland? Also, could DNA from her coat or other clothes get onto her night gown? Or there was her husband's DNA on her clothes as well? All not impossible? There may be any number of DNA traces? Also that blood stain on the boot, it's not clear if that stain came from the murderer or came to be there at the night of the murder even if it can be traced to one specific individual.

As far as I know they've taken DNA samples and sent them for analysis to the UK but didn't come up with anything.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120663491#Comment_120663491

I should have said the clothes she was found in, night clothes and house coat.

cj maxx

I just had a google as I don’t remember the details. Between Gardaí F-ups and witnesses withdrawing sworn testimony he’s never ever be tried here again .

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120663700#Comment_120663700

I would expect that if they find DNA they may narrow things down but I don't think there's anything new. However I don't think there will ever be a conviction in this murder case. To date there is nothing strong enough on anybody, and murder or not, it won't be anything unusual to find either Alfie's, Shirley's, Bolger's, Bruno's or Bailey's DNA somewhere around the gate or the pump house, possibly also the postman, or some telephone technician and other tradesmen. Suppose Karl-Heinz Wolney visited Alfie once? ( for some weed) Then his DNA is also around, even more, today they're both dead.

EdHoven

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120664385#Comment_120664385

That just made me think the postman was the last person admitting to using the lane prior to Shirley finding the body. I wonder if he opened the gate then drove off and didn't close it. Maybe that provoked an argument with between Alfie and Sophie. She wouldn't expect a postman on a dark Sunday evening.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669121#Comment_120669121

I'd say with a degree of certainty the postman would have left DNA and fingerprints as well. This doesn't mean he killed her, it's just there to show how many people have passed that place and possibly touched things, anything from the gates to even something like a cavity block.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120669121#Comment_120669121

The nearby gate , the one into Sophie's lawn was also found open in the morning. It's unlikely the postman would have opened that one.

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120663379#Comment_120663379

This crime scene should have yielded ample forensic evidence to find and convict the killer but the Gardai & State Pathologist made such a complete hash of things that nothing of forensic value was preserved which means that the subsequent dramatic advances in DNA technology haven’t brought the investigation, with its umpteen cold case reviews, any closer to its conclusion.

The extraordinary breakthrough in the Kerry Babies case is a reminder of what is possible now if you have a proper sample. That case was arguably the most spectacular failure in the history of the Garda Siochana although for sheer incompetence and petty corruption I believe the Sophie Toscan du Plantier investigation was worse. I think the Annie McCarrick case comes a close second for incompetence but there may be a breakthrough there soon.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120677723#Comment_120677723

I would agree with you, however this case is extraordinary. DNA could prove who was in the area, but DNA can't prove at what time one was there. Even worse the murder weapon could be touched and handled by anybody coming and going through that gate. The problem is that the murder weapon wasn't a firearm registered to any specific person, or leaving residue on somebody's hand, or a knife owned by a specific person, all bearing fingerprints of the murderer.

Suppose somebody came, anybody, opened the gate, left fingerprints on the gate, possibly held on to the cavity block in plain sight on the pump house, stumbling, leaving fiber of the clothes on the brambles and briars, all this happening up to one day or even hours of the murder. Doesn't mean this man's or woman's DNA or fingerprints would point to the murderer. So it's not that easy.

Maybe I am totally wrong here as well, but these are just my thoughts.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120677723#Comment_120677723

It could also be argued that there is no 'other' DNA present because the killer(s) comes from within the 'reason to be there group'?

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120682896#Comment_120682896

This contention should be irrelevant because the blood, hair and fibres on or near the body could belong only to Sophie and her murderer.

Any competent investigation would have preserved and identified this material which would provide ample forensic evidence to convict her killer. As you say, the DNA etc. in the cottage could include many people who had no part in the murder but that would be entirely immaterial if the Gardai/State Pathologist had not made a total mess of their primary task in this investigation. Instead, they had to speculate about the forensic material found in the cottage (including from Ian Bailey who was allowed to wander around the crime scene).

Her killer sleeps easy knowing that no advance in forensic science can expose him because the relevant material was not collected in the first place.😡

FishOnABike

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120683473#Comment_120683473

or her. Let's not jump to conclusions.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120683473#Comment_120683473

"they had to speculate about the forensic material found in the cottage (including from Ian Bailey who was allowed to wander around the crime scene)."

There was no evidence of Ian Bailey found in the cottage, or anywhere else in the area as far as I know.

The forensics team had done their work before Ian Bailey was allowed to wander around the crime scene.

" because the relevant material was not collected in the first place"

What relevant material was not collected?

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120684362#Comment_120684362

Ian Bailey was allowed to wander around the cottage on the morning after the murder. If they didn't find forensic evidence of this, the investigation is even worse than I thought.

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120683792#Comment_120683792

I said "could belong only to Sophie and her murderer". Do you think only the victim left traces at this bloody murder scene?

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120685790#Comment_120685790

Do you have a source for this?

In that period they would not have been looking for touch transfer DNA. So what forensics do you think a wander by anyone would leave for the forensics of the time to discover?

FishOnABike

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120685809#Comment_120685809

Her killer sleeps easy knowing that no advance in forensic science can expose him because the relevant material was not collected in the first place.😡

Until a successful prosecution is brought (if ever) we can't assume anything about Sophie's killer.

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120684362#Comment_120684362

The relevant material is the blood, hair and fibres at the murder scene. It is clear from the DPP's report that nothing of forensic value was obtained.

Caquas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120685976#Comment_120685976

I had read this somewhere but can’t find it now and I see that Bailey denies entering the crime scene. And of course that was in the afternoon, not the morning, because he only heard about the murder around 1.30pm

My key point remains: no worthwhile forensic evidence was retrieved from the scene of a brutal, bloody murder. That was a dreadful failure in 1996 and it is a continuing scandal because advances in DNA etc. would yield more results even from small samples if such had been preserved.

No one has been held accountable for this failure which is the root cause of the entire investigative fiasco.

https://www.hotpress.com/culture/the-full-interview-with-ian-bailey-victim-of-the-state-20380088

You had been on the crime scene in a journalistic capacity. 

I had gone out towards the scene and I got no closer than about 150 yards from the scene when two police officers walked up. I asked them if there was any information forthcoming and they said, ‘No, you need to go to the press office.’ So I hadn’t actually gone to the scene. I was in the locality.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690726#Comment_120690726

Bailey first went up past the cottage some days after the murder. He managed to tag along with Leo bolger who was taking some provisions up to Alfie and offered to help carry them. He was not yet a suspect, no more than than anyone else at that stage. It was still a crime scene but forensics had done most of their work there by then.

"My key point remains: no worthwhile forensic evidence was retrieved from the scene of a brutal, bloody murder."

"It is clear from the DPP's report that nothing of forensic value was obtained."

How do you know what evidence was retrieved, and what was missed? There's nothing in the DPP's report about it as far as I know

Edited to clarify;

it was not Bailey’s first time up past Sophie’s house, he had done some gardening for Alfie in the past and had been to a party at Alfie’s for Shirley’s retirement a couple of years earlier.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690726#Comment_120690726

Thanks for sharing that hotpress article. It was a good read with lot's of insight.