Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed. **Threadbans lifted - see OP**

Baz Richardson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122087785#Comment_122087785

Although reported as such in the media, I don't believe that it was established as a fact that Karl stated anything about doing something was it?

The issue for me with police claiming a sexual motive is that there is no evidence of it being one, therefore making it an equally unlikely motive for anybody.

Bruno is an ex-lover, knew the cottage well, had recent contact, and allegedly threatened or assaulted her (I read here by strangulation) on the subway. If those allegations are true, it demonstrates a history of violence against the actual victim and Bruno would not need to have a motive of sex for this attack.

But he has an alibi and not being privy to the investigation, we are not in a position to test it. French police appear satisfied with it at the time and in their later investigation.

Baz Richardson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122082902#Comment_122082902

Media reports on the cold case have a one liner stating that police were investigating Sophie's relationship with a male who had a jealous wife. Daniel stated that Sophie was quite taken with Tomi Ungerer… Some of the last people she met with during her trip to Ireland.

Mackinac

Not convinced of a sexual motive either.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122088832#Comment_122088832

I wrote could and would in the context of a sexual motive.

We neither have evidence for or against, it's just a possibility.

Regarding Bruno, I do understand that anybody could easily forge some form of signature. It could easily have been done by a man looking like Bruno, and a telecom technician who sees multiple people on any single day might not always remember the exact details. And a fake ID could have helped as well, telecom technicians don't normally scan passports or IDs on their validity.

And regarding French police and the French judiciary, I wouldn't trust them too much, given on how they convicted Bailey.

Again, it's just another hypothesis, no evidence.

An investigation should go into any direction.

We just have very little to go on.

Baz Richardson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122088973#Comment_122088973

Although due to their history he would be near the top of my list, the issue I have with the Bruno theory is that it requires pre-planning for a murder that doesn't appear to have been planned. I can accept a murder scene could be made to look unplanned, but it's then a bit of a leap to use a telephone engineer as part of some pre-planned alibi.

Bruno would have booked a telephone engineer for the day he visited Ireland, known that there would be a receipt, had somebody cover for him and sign it, and relied on the engineer turning up on the day.

I don't believe that the French investigating officers should be tarred with the same brush as the prosecutors. They could have made thorough investigations into Bruno, perhaps even more so than the Irish did, we just don't know. Not trusting the French police as an excuse to wave away Bruno's alibi would demonstrate our bias, something we accuse others of.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122089485#Comment_122089485

We don't know either if the murder was planned or unplanned. There is no real evidence for both options.

However whether planned or unplanned would be one of the major disagreements all contributors would have in this discussion.

The murderer would at least have to have known that Sophie was at her cottage a place she rarely ever visited in any given time of the year, and the murderer certainly didn't want any witnesses as well.

If Sophie's trip to Ireland was something on the spur of the moment, it could easily have been something similar for Bruno and getting somebody to cover for him for the telecom technician doesn't take an awful lot of planning.

The date of the discovery was 23 December 1996 which was a Monday? When did the telecoms technician arrive? Could Bruno in the case if nobody covered for him even theoretically have made an early morning flight from Cork to Paris and meet the technician? No idea? But I am sure, the possibility would have been investigated back then as well?

Day Lewin

While the Bruno theory does have some inviting aspects (like a woman's intimate partner being by FAR the most likely person to murder her) there really are some huge snags.

He would have had to hire a car, or borrow one. French-sounding guy, getting a car the day before a high-profile murder of a French woman; somebody would have HAD to have remembered him! Where did he eat and drink and sleep in the intervals of driving out to remote West Cork?

And if he planned the murder, why didn't he bring a weapon, and why didn't he do it in the house? She might have been surprised to see him but she would definitely have let him in. So the death might have remained undiscovered for far longer.

And if it was a lovers' quarrel, why did it happen at the gate on the lane?

It would have been much simpler to just wait until she got back to France, ask to see her, maybe go out on a date, and THEN do it.

And so on.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122091770#Comment_122091770

We all don't know, we're just examining the possibility one of many.

Getting the car would have been possibly the bigger challenge of being remembered, but again, how many men with a French accent would stand out at an airport car rental company?

Well Bruno didn't bring a weapon, as he flew, and had to go through security. That would be one explanation.

However I suppose, that if Bruno would have arrived in the dead of night or early morning at Sophie's house in Ireland, she would most likely have let him in, they would have talked, and quite possibly murdered her there? Could have used a knife in the kitchen rather than a cavity block at the gates?

Bruno would also not have known if the Richardson's were at home, or Alfie and Shirley.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122085232#Comment_122085232

Leo and Sally Bolger lived in Dunmanus East near Hellens and Pecout, about a mile from Sophie. They were in the process of moving down to Ballybrack, beyond Schull.

They needed someplace for their horses in the meantime and asked Alfie for use of his field beside Sophie’s house. The horses would have to be taken along the lane and through the gate by Sophie’s back door.

A couple of weeks before the murder Leo fenced in the field and the horses were there the weekend of the murder. One of the horses was unbroken and either Leo or Sally came each day to check and feed them.

The only route up to the horses was either along the back of Sophie’s house or up the lawn in front of her house, the route Shirley took when she discovered the body.

Sally came on Saturday, Leo came on Sunday afternoon and visited Alfie. They had mince pies. They overslept on Monday morning and later want Christmas shopping. So they didn’t visit at all on Monday.Leo didn’t know about the murder until Alfie phoned him Mon evening.

Leo came on Tues and was allowed up to visit the horses. According to the photo posted by @bjsc earlier he went up through the field in front of Richardsons house avoiding the murder scene, but still had to go along the back of Sophie’s house.

Both Leo’s and Sally’s finger marks and footprints would have been all over the area and the gates. I don’t know if the Bolgers drove in through the gate when they visited. Both of them were aggressively questioned afterwards. I can’t recall what samples, if any were taken from them.

Leo’s drug bust in Durrus and his account of the introduction of Bailey and Sophie by Alfie is well documented.
……

Bridget’s last post here was in response to a query about the local Peeping Tom. He lived a 15/20 min walk away in Dunkelly East, on a track he had used to visit Alfie. He was one of the original suspects, but the Garda that interviewed him decided he was an unlikely killer, I don’t know on what grounds. He was a local odd bod type who stole car batteries and Tractor tyres around the area, he was late 40’s at the time so obviously young enough and fit enough. He took a lift from a local person around 7:30 on the Mon morning who gave a statement but I believe the Gardai have not released it. He died in 2022 after a long illness.

saabsaab

Interesting article about DNA here.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/murder-sophie-toscan-du-plantier-may-yet-solved-dna-bradley-dnaguy-zc3uc?trk=article-ssr-frontend-pulse_more-articles_related-content-card

Of course if her killer(s) were people who could be expected to be around the house then no new DNA would be found?

“Her clothing may also be a good source for the
suspect's touch DNA. Several cases come to mind when I think of
clothing that has been sitting in an evidence locker for decades which
have yielded enough DNA to identify the killer.” Just last year the
M-Vac was able to collect DNA from the clothing of two teenage girls who
were murdered in Florida in 1975, he pointed out. “So if the evidence
in this case has been stored properly there's no reason to believe it
doesn't also have suspect DNA on it, especially due to the violent
nature of the murder. To me, the chance that the suspect forcefully
grabbed the victim is almost certain, so the likelihood that DNA is
somewhere on her clothing is almost a guarantee."

bjsc

I'm back guys.

bjsc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122085232#Comment_122085232

I'm back

oceanman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122094933#Comment_122094933

welcome back, you have been missed.

Gussie Scrotch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122094933#Comment_122094933

Welcome back!

chooseusername

That’s great B.
Welcome back.

bjsc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122087747#Comment_122087747

They did interview her. Her name is Trudi Etchells.

Baz Richardson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122091722#Comment_122091722

Whoever did sign the receipt would have to keep quiet and Bruno would have to know that they would keep quiet. The whole somebody covering for him just doesn't seen likely.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122096272#Comment_122096272

Well, we can't neither prove nor deny this possibility.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122095908#Comment_122095908

Anything on Gerry Scully or the neighbour he spoke to on Monday morning at 7:30?

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122083758#Comment_122083758

You’re right, it was unlikely to be something trivial like leaving a gate open, especially the gate in the lane, which any visitor had a right to use.
But what if someone thought they were entitled to enter Sophie’s property to go about their daily business, but Sophie thought otherwise. Someone on her front lawn or in the lane by her back door, who she believed had no right to be there? She would consider that trespass, and would be right to confront them.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122102295#Comment_122102295

True, especially if they were on drugs themselves or about to collect their stuff for Christmas?

Mackinac

Collecting something hidden in the pumphouse maybe?

If the set up in the kitchen is to be believed it’s possible she was cutting bread for breakfast and looked out to see someone at the outhouse. She goes outside, down through the field and catches up with them at the gate. Maybe she intercepted them taking something from the pumphouse near the gate?

Though I can’t see where the discarded bottle of wine would fit in with that unless it is a complete red herring. I’d considered she gone down to the gate with the wine to give someone as a gift.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122115447#Comment_122115447

https://www.instagram.com/longhollowgardens/p/Cdk29iDOMUf/

Mackinac

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122115705#Comment_122115705

very good!

Day Lewin

I think "intruder collecting something from pumphouse" (or barn?) is actually a plausible theory. That house was so seldom occupied, they just didn't expect anyone to be there!

If they were on foot, they probably wouldn't have opened the gate right back, as it was found; they wouldn't need to.

Therefore, they were most likely driving.

Drove a little way up the lane, turned the car in maybe the Richardson's entrance, drive down to gate again ready to leave…and then jump out to get whatever-it-was; and at this point the indignant owner of the pump-house and the land it was on, comes out of her house to remonstrate - about the open gate? or the trespass on her property?

But she runs down to the gate to engage with the intruder. And darkness descends on the story. Who was it, and what were they doing there?

Mackinac

Might explain why the block from the pumphouse was used-did it have to be removed to retrieve something?

Gussie Scrotch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122116039#Comment_122116039

That's an interesting idea.

As a hiding place, the pumphouse would be ideal. Property not associated with the dealers/growers, easily accessible, only occupied for a few days every year………

Day Lewin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122116039#Comment_122116039

I think that is a really good theory.

And behold, if you owned a house and you looked out your kitchen window one winter morning and saw a member of the public actually pulling a block out of YOUR pumphouse - well, you absolutely would rush down to have an argument with them!

FrankN1

Strange to think a dealer who has all of West Cork to hide some drugs, would choose another pumphouse in a random property. Would it not be easier to hide it out in nature, literally anywhere that people don't go.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122115797#Comment_122115797

It's possible the pumphouse was used as some kind of hiding place or secret letter box for something ? drugs? And whoever was using this to hide and later to collect didn't expect Sophie to be there? And neither the Richardson's.

But they would have known Alfie and Shirley were there all year round.

Day Lewin

"..But they would have known Alfie and Shirley were there all year round. "

Well, yes. And also one or two other persons had access to the area, who also had connections with drugs.

It sort of has to be someone local, wouldn't you think? Not many people ever passed that way.

And Sophie had to be eliminated because she could have given the guards a description of the person, or their car.

Gussie Scrotch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122117524#Comment_122117524

Its also noteworthy that Alfie himself was known to grow a bit of the old ganga, and another regular visitor to the area, Leo Bolger, was active in the business……………………….

Mackinac

Anyone watching Bodkin, the Obama produced Netflix series? Premise is a group of podcasters go to a village in West Cork to investigate murders 20 years earlier. Only watched the first episode but 20 mins in one of the locals suggests a horse did it. Few shady characters, a dodgy guard and a whiff of drugs/organised crime.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122118538#Comment_122118538

Sounds familiar.

Day Lewin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122118538#Comment_122118538

Well now, WHAT does that remind me of? ;-)

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122117617#Comment_122117617

That's well known, I think.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122117524#Comment_122117524

“And Sophie had to be eliminated because she could have given the guards a description of the person, or their car.”

Or their name(s)?

I believe the answer lies with whoever was living in the locality at the time, possibly within a mile or two of the murder.

Gussie Scrotch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122118783#Comment_122118783

Yes, but my point is that as a convenient place to hide some stuff, the pumphouse would have been ideal for Alfie or Leo or both. Close enough to keep an eye on it but not actually on either's property. Easy to access, nobody else around for most of the time. And, in the event of discovery, easily deniable.

Day Lewin

Well, ether could have left something there; a nice little bundle of Christmas cheer. To be collected.

If Alfie had done the attack on Sophie, though, I'm surprised he left that for Shirley to find.

As for Leo, we don't know so much about his moves.

I'm guessing a client, though, rather than either of these "producers".

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122119260#Comment_122119260

It's very much possible that this was the case. After all, drugs or anything drug related is one of the possible motives in this murder.

I would also suggest whoever was involved in drugs certainly didn't expect Sophie to be around on Christmas.

Were the Richardson's in the habit of visiting their cottage over Christmas? Probably not?

Day Lewin

Every single account I've ever read mentions the Richardson's place as being unoccupied at the time.

I wonder if it was searched, or checked out in any detail? (It must have been!)

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122119840#Comment_122119840

I would hope it was searched but havent seen this confirmed anywhere.

We know very little about the Richardsons and how often they visited. Did they even know Sophie?

Mackinac

The blue fiesta seen speeding away the morning of the murder - surely that can’t have been that difficult to track down? Does anyone know who saw that car?

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122120005#Comment_122120005

I am not clear if the Guards ever investigated into this direction? However just on the off chance I would have looked at how many Ford Fiestas are registered in West Cork, and to whom.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122120005#Comment_122120005

It was probably tracked down and a simple valid explanation given to the Gardai about it and thus was no longer a line of enquiry.

irishspiderplant

a thought has occurred to me…

what if Sophie’s murder had nothing to do with her at all?

What if we are completely on the wrong track with regard to the reasons as to why someone would murder her? Maybe there was no reason at all.

There are only three houses up this rural lane in a very isolated part of the countryside.

Sophie visited only a few times a year, she was hardly ever there, not long enough to for example ever meet Bailey let alone give him a reason to murder her, to give anyone a reason to murder her.

so why was she killed?

what if was a case of wrong house, wrong person?

For example, what if she was assumed to be Shirley?

We know the murderer returned to the house for reasons for which no one here can give a satisfactory explanation, when after committing a crime like that there would be no thought in your head other than getting away as quickly as possible.

Was he expecting to find Alfie?

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122120717#Comment_122120717

That's possible but unlikely. Just to examine the possibility:

• If hypothetically speaking Shirley was to be killed, and the killer mistook Shirley for Sophie, the killer would have learned his mistake soon after when the victim was named in the media.

• The killer would certainly have tried to return to kill Shirley once he learned he killed the wrong woman, the killer would certainly not have been "paid" by whomever for killing the wrong woman either.

• The killer was most likely not a local, if he mistook Sophie's house for Alfie and Shirley. It's also a relatively easy instruction to describe the very last house, past another house with a certain description.

• If Shirley was the intended victim to be killed, Shirley must have been involved with something, but she wasn't, as far as we know. It's only known that Alfie was a drug user, maybe doing a bit more we don't know about, but not Shirley.

Baz Richardson

As mentioned before when looking at the drugs angle, the media reported that the cold case team were investigating Sophie having met with two French men hiding out from a criminal gang.

Baz Richardson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122094922#Comment_122094922

Hello,

Is there anything in the file re: Martin O’Sullivan and his statement of what he thought was a Ford Fiesta being driven dangerously on the morning of Sophie's body being discovered?

Thank you

irishspiderplant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122121743#Comment_122121743

I don’t mean a paid assassination.