Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed. **Threadbans lifted - see OP**

Day Lewin

I've tended to guess that the killer went up to the house to check if there were any other people/possible witnesses there.

Not many people could have known that Sophie was alone on this visit - previously she had always had a companion or guests - and there was the hired car, parked at the corner and probably visible from the lane gate.

Also, someone pushed the door shut so that nobody could get in - and Sophie did not have any keys found on the body - she hardly locked herself out, did she?

So someone checked out the house and shut the door, leaving a smear of her blood on the outside.

Did they enter the cottage? Impossible to say. No obvious signs left, for sure.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122641133#Comment_122641133

So someone checked out the house and shut the door, leaving a smear of her blood on the outside.

I'd agree that the killer left the blood mark on the door but this would suggest that the killer had a reasonable amount of blood on their clothes. Given that Bailey's clothes & boots were taken into evidence and no trace of Sophie's DNA was ever found (blood, hair or anything) it's hard to see why AGS still cling to the belief that it had to have been him.

I'd also question the suggestion that he was seen at Keelfada - if you committed such an act you'd get to a "safe" place as quickly as you could before being seen. The suggestion that Bailey walked further away from home to go and wash in the sea is daft, especially when he could have done so nearer to home (at Dunmanus) if he wished.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122641106#Comment_122641106

The odd thing is that the DNA under her nails and the hair in her hands are Sophie's however she would hardly tear out her own hair, or scracht or injure herself deliberately? Possibly the killer did this with Sophie's hands?

She was tangled in briars and so it is quite likely that she was struggling to quickly free herself

jesuisjuste

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122640898#Comment_122640898

I've never seen a statement or claim from Shirley directly saying she didn't hear anything, if anyone can point one out to me I'd appreciate it. I know Alfie made "claims" for both of them however, which is not the same thing.

Gussie Scrotch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122641275#Comment_122641275

No, I can't recall one either, but if she had said that she had heard something, then I think it would be in the public domain by now. It would, for one thing, be a pretty strong indicator of the time it happened-one of the key unknowns.

jesuisjuste

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122641302#Comment_122641302

There is much that has not been released in the public domain, and some removed altogether (jobs book) most likely if it didn't fit the story. It may not necessarily have been anything definitive, but perhaps she heard something that was initially dismissed out of hand. Though it was an animal, or maybe she thought she heard a car etc. Other people heard dogs going wild etc. during the night for e.g.

chooseusername

Is there a statement anywhere by Alfie, Shirley or the Gardai that says both doors were found locked shut in the morning? If there is I haven’t seen it.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122641133#Comment_122641133

It's possible that Alfie ( even if he didn't kill her ) touch something at the crime scene, and then went to Sophie's house to knock on the door and caused the stain on the door.

Alfie would hardly have knocked on the door if there was already a blood stain, - I would imagine?

Maybe it was really also the killer who went back to check out the house? Took the bottle of wine, shut the door and left, later on ( even came back ) disposed of the bottle thinking it could incriminate him?

We all don't know.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122641228#Comment_122641228

The last minutes of her life must have been terrible. She felt to tear her own hair out, to free herself? This must have been more than a struggle combined with a massive fear. This would indicate a very painful death. I also doubt, it was a quiet event, she probably screamed.

bjsc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122641333#Comment_122641333

JP Twomey, who arrived on scene at about midday, said that both doors were locked and there were no lights on.

Gussie Scrotch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122641482#Comment_122641482

I think its more likely that the attacker was holding/pulling Sophie's hair and she was trying to pull it out of his hands….hence the finding of strands of her own hair in her hands.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122641521#Comment_122641521

It would most likely be the only explanation. However this would also mean, that it was not a quiet event, and most likely something loud. Sophie must have screamed at this point. Could the killer have known that this was possibly heard by Alfie and Shirley? Or would wake them up? ( I doubt the killer would have factored in how far the sound travelled, how insulated the windows of Alfie and Shirley's place were, etc…)

Or the killer didn't care about noise, as it was Alfie himself?

MonkieSocks

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Or the killer didn't care about noise, as it was Alfie himself?

There you have it Ladies and Genlemen,Case closed

jesuisjuste

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122641498#Comment_122641498

To clarify this point, did Twomey say that that back door, with the blood stain, was locked from the inside? I thought the gardai proposed that the confrontation happened at this door?

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122641743#Comment_122641743

The Gardai proposed a lot of things in this case.

Apart from the incompetence of the Gardai the case would have been difficult to solve for any police authority.

I think either only fingerprints or solid DNA evidence would have done the job, both we don't have. And the only witness in this case was coerced by the Gardai to state the sight of one suspect rather far away and unrelated from the murder site.

head82

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122641743#Comment_122641743

There's a photo way back in this thread of the inside of the front door with the key still inserted and in the locked/bolted position. I think the front door was rarely if ever used. It would indicate that the back door couldn't also have been locked from the inside and either Sophie locked herself out or the killer closed it after the assault.

bjsc may be able to clarify though.

Day Lewin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122641521#Comment_122641521

This seems to me the only possible explanation why a person's wounded hands were found holding only strands of her own hair.

It also does very strongly suggest that the person she struggled with was wearing gloves!

Or surely she would have picked up some trace of DNA, from skin, sweat etc as she tried to pull free from his grip.

Of course, the attacker wearing gloves would also explain why no skin scrapings etc were left on the surrounding brambles.

And presumably, no scratches inflicted on his hands - neither by her frantic clawing to free her hair, nor by the nearby thorns.

It was, after all, a cold midwinter night or early morning. Gloves would be quite natural - or would they?

Definitely, if you are a walker. Or if you dismounted from your car in order to push open a metal farm gate?

(I wear gloves when driving in winter, but I think most people don't)

Such a frustrating puzzle!

jesuisjuste

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122641794#Comment_122641794

Yeh, it makes sense that one door would be locked/latched but I don't understand how both doors would be locked. Nobody is going to take the time to lock themselves out of their house in a confrontation. If anything they would lock themselves in!

Gussie Scrotch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122641543#Comment_122641543

Sophie had a number of obvious defensive wounds….broken fingers etc.

I think its safe to say that this attack didn't happen in silence.

head82

Perhaps Alfie and Shirley did hear some altercation take place at the gate but as they weren't overly fond of Sophie anyway, dismissed it as "the crazy French woman off on one of her rants". Not realizing the seriousness of the situation.

When questioned if they heard anything, it would be easier to say "No" than explain why they took no action. Might be a wild hypothesis but if there is any element of truth in it, I would imagine the inaction would leave one with a certain degree of guilt.

Xander10

I'm more of the opinion that the incident occurred in the morning with a confrontation down at the gate as opposed to opening the door to someone in the middle of the night.

And that makes it more improbable that it was Bailey, for me.

Oscar_Madison

Bailey was gone from his bedroom what, six hours was it?
Is there a detailed account of how he spent those 6 hours except for “writing an article”- has he ever gone into detail ? He had a rake of booze on him so Shirley he did t stay awake all night writing? Anyone have the article that he actually wrote?

Gussie Scrotch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122641980#Comment_122641980

I'm convinced of this too.

The fact that Sophie had outdoor boots on, strongly suggests to me that she intended to go outside…..and I would suggest…..outside to the gate specifically.

There are many reasons to conclude that the incident occurred in the morning……in daylight:

I don't think that Sophie would have gone outside in the middle of the night.

No lights were on when the Gardai arrived.

The contents of her stomach suggest some breakfast had been eaten.

A partially cut loaf of bread was left, uncovered on the table.

No alcohol was found in her system at the post mortem.

So, to me, it is likely that Sophie was in the process of having her breakfast, sometime after daybreak, when her attention was drawn to some issue at the gate. She put her boots on and walked down to the gate, after which whatever happened, happened.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122641980#Comment_122641980

If Bailey would have done it in the morning at say 7 or 7.30 am, then there would have been the 1 hour hike home, and cleaning up. I doubt that he could have been back with Jules at 9am. This would have taken him longer, 1 hour hike and avoid beeng seen whilst hiking on the side of the road, blood partially on him, it was getting light at some point, then a longer cleaning up at the studio, etc….

It's possible with a good portion of luck, but not probable.

Xander10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122642049#Comment_122642049

And the risk of someone if his home being up at the time and seeing him in a state or cleaning himself up would have been huge

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122642055#Comment_122642055

Not that, he had the studio which he rented. It's a separate house, maybe 200 meters north of Jule's.

jesuisjuste

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122641997#Comment_122641997

I haven't really seen a definitive statement on anything regarding Bailey's movements that night. A lot of the time in this case in statements interviews etc. people say something, and then it is reported on or rumoured in a way that infers something different. If someone can point to specifics about what Bailey said he did I'd appreciate it. I haven't seen anywhere where he says how long he remained in the house, and how long he was in the studio.

It seems to be:

~ 2.30 a.m. Bailey got up and was hanging around he prairie cottage

Sometime before 9.00 a.m. Bailey went to the studio and finished his article

Sometime after around 9.00 a.m. Bailey came back and made coffee for Jules and himself

jesuisjuste

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122641932#Comment_122641932

An alternative viewpoint is that they didn't say 'no' as such, just that the gardai didn't include this information as it didn't point to Bailey.

Gussie Scrotch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122642049#Comment_122642049

Daybreak at that time was sometime after 07:30. So, I would suggest that the murder happened sometime after that.

So yes, if that was the timeline…..of course it may not have been……but I think it was….then yes, that would render Bailey's involvement even less likely.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122642080#Comment_122642080

As far as I know the police never presented a timeline on how Bailey's night would have been, what he did when, how he gotten there, where he cleaned up, etc….

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122642180#Comment_122642180

You would think that would have been one of the first things they should have done- any number of healthy thirty somethings who believe Bailey killed her could try it out - have a rake of pints and a few whiskeys on a cold clear winters night- then make their way over from Jules’ house to Sophie’s at say 2.30am- see how long it takes them and how they feel when they get there-

Xander10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122642180#Comment_122642180

P. 126 of D/Sgt. Liam Hogan’s initial report refers to Bailey stating “some time after going to bed I got up – did a bit of writing in the kitchen. I then went down to the studio. I am not sure what time it was but it was dark. I have no watch. I had a story to write for the Tribune and was told it was O.K. – that Tuesday would do. It was a story about the Internet. I went back to Jules’s house about 11:00 a.m.”

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122642271#Comment_122642271

I’ve always thought Jules next saw him around 9am as he was bringing her a cup of coffee - I don’t recall it being as late as 11am

jesuisjuste

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122642271#Comment_122642271

Thanks, do you have the date on when this report was taken?. It seemingly pulls the time he claimed he headed to the studio further back to perhaps sometime before 7.00 a.m. and probably sometime after 3.00 a.m. if he did some writing in the kitchen also. Given he must have had a reasonable estimation of timing you would think he could have narrowed it in to around 4-6 a.m. or something like that. I wonder why the gardai never claimed as late as 8 or 9 a.m. for a window of opportunity for Bailey in this case. Seems like that would have been the most likely opportunity, why were they so beholden to the 3 a.m. timeframe, is it just because of the Marie Farrell rigmarole?

bjsc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122641743#Comment_122641743

Unfortunately it's not entirely clear. But the back door had a yale lock so would lock as it was closed. It also had a barrell lock. The keys were in the front door so unless Sophie took the keys out of there, unlocked the barrel lock on the back door and then put the keys back it is reasonable to suppose that the back door was only secured by the yale.

Xander10

"Warnings issued by the Gardaí as to the alleged danger presented by
Bailey to the community.
In a report submitted to this Office on 26 February 1997 for the purpose of a
consultation the Gardaí stated the following:
6

1. It is of the utmost importance that Bailey be charged immediately with this
   murder as there is every possibility that he will kill again.
2. It is reasonable to suggest that witnesses living close to him are in
   imminent danger of attack.
3. The only way to prevent a further attack or killing is to take Bailey into
   custody on a charge of murder and this point cannot be over-stressed.
   It is understood that the Gardaí issued similar warnings about Bailey to members of the
   community"

It is clear the Gardai had Bailey down as a serial killer, which was clearly nonsense. And they stoked that fear in the community.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122642250#Comment_122642250

They sent some young Guard up a tree but I have no record of them sending a volunteer on such a mission :)

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122642358#Comment_122642358

The Gardai was behaving really dumb and child minded with apparently no real experience or training. Did they really think that coercing Marie Farrell to state that Bailey had been at Kealfadda bridge would convince a judge or a jury about a murder? For the record, Kealfadda bridge is a lot further away from the murder scene than say Alfie and Shirley's.

head82

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122642358#Comment_122642358

Was this an official AGS statement??

I was about to highlight the more prominent aspects of it but everything about it is incredible! It's almost akin to alerting the public to an imminent alien invasion or incoming nuclear weapon of mass destruction.

How could they issue such a statement when at that point in time Bailey was still only a suspect?

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122642662#Comment_122642662

In the DPP report it says about the above:

"It is understood that the Gardaí issued similar warnings about Bailey to members of the community."

head82

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122642689#Comment_122642689

That is absolutely shocking and I was completely unaware of this but it does go some way towards explaining why that lad ( whose name I can't recall but he got all freaked out when seeing Bailey within walking distance of him and overly reacted ) behaved the way he did.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122642727#Comment_122642727

Bill Fuller.

Yeah, the hysteria the Guards whipped up in the local community is a reason not to give the benefit of the doubt to some of the questionable testimony from locals.

On the 20 February 1997 Bill Fuller, his partner and child had gone to the causeway at Kealfadda Bridge in order to pursue his own investigation of the murder. He was with his wife and child. He saw a man whom he thought to be Bailey and this caused them to run away in blind panic believing the man had seen them. They ran a considerable distance until they reached Toormore Beach where they ran along a lane way which led out onto the roadway to Goleen. Screaming and roaring they ran in front of the first car to approach them. It was being driven by a Ms. Breda O’Reilly. Her initial reaction was not to stop, but when she saw that Bill Fuller was carrying a three-year-old child under his arm she thought the child was sick. When Ms. O’Reilly lowered the car window both Bill and Kerri Fuller screamed at her that the murderer Ian Bailey was down the road, pointing towards Kealfadda Bridge. Ms. O’Reilly drove them directly to Goleen where Ms. O’Reilly contacted the Gardaí. In her statement Ms. O’Reilly describes the terrible state of shock and fear that the Fullers were in and she stated that they feared for their own safety. It transpires that a local farmer was working near their van that day and they had mistaken him for Ian Bailey in their high state of apprehension.

(from the DPP report)

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122642367#Comment_122642367

Yeah I read that alright - well I was just thinking if they did that research why not try out a drunken late night early morning walk - it might have given them some additional insight

chooseusername

chooseusernameSep 21, 2024

Is there a statement anywhere by Alfie, Shirley or the Gardai that says both doors were found locked shut in the morning? If there is I haven’t seen it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122641498#Comment_122641498

Sorry @bjsc, by Gardaí I meant Prendiville and Byrne the first Gardaí on the scene. I always assumed rightly or wrongly that Twomey or Joy got the keys from Josie Hellen and opened the doors. What state did Twomey find the doors in, does he say?

As I see it, Shirley Foster did not recognise the victim. Alfie states he went no closer than 20 yards, so probably the bend in the lane. If that's the case he would not know it was Sophie either. He stated he went to check or warn Sophie, knocking on the windows. I can't recall if this was before or after he called the Gardaí. Did Alfie not point out the blood on the back door to the Gardaí?

Oscar_Madison

The developed photos- what are peoples thoughts?

I would have said Bailey was well known in Ireland by the year 2000- why would Patrick Lowney not have recognised him?

3 years after the killing? Why then to get them developed?

If Bailey was the murderer does this mean he travelled to the house with a camera? Did he always travel around with a camera do we know?

Why risk getting a photographer to develop a film of a crime scene that you’re being suspected of, 3 years after the crime was committed?

Doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me at all and incredibly risky- you would have said smoking gun type risky

https://watchers.ie/2021/12/24/this-is-the-part-that-has-many-questions-left-in-limbo/

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122643732#Comment_122643732

Seems to be staged photos of some sort.

Remember Bailey tried to shop around photos of the scene taken by Jules from outside the cordon and they were so bad / blurred no one interested.

I cant find the link right now but there was a subsequent interview with Lowney before his death and he was back tracking on confirming it was Bailey. But the Guards has his earlier statement and gave that to the French.

Guards simply cannot be trusted wrt to this case.

Edit found the link...

Mr Lowney told the Irish Mail on Sunday that although a man did come to him with suspicious photos, he never identified him to gardai as Bailey. He said: "I didn't actually say it was him."

https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Sophie+witness+No2+'out'.-a0163320389

Mannesmann

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122640553#Comment_122640553

It seems that the killer might have been wearing gloves. Not unusual you might say doing work on a cold morning it would explain the blood transfer at the door but no other DNA. I would say that most Irish men especially then didn't routinely wear gloves. I used to and it was remarked on often by others. So if they were a regular wearer it would be noticed or it was someone not local?

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122643764#Comment_122643764

Thanks for that - didn’t know about the “back-tracking”- if this testimony was indeed given to the French then jayzuz, it’s the closest thing to guilt you’re gonna get - the French assumed the Gardai fully believed this happened - so it was dynamite evidence as long as it went unchallenged which of course it did

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122643782#Comment_122643782

The whole story stinks of BS.

The French heard what they wanted to hear and didnt scrutinise it and in doing so collaborated in a miscarriage of justice.

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122643790#Comment_122643790

So many testimonies and evidence have been debunked through the years you’d wonder just what is left to submit to the DPP