Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed. **Threadbans lifted - see OP**

tibruit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122793873#Comment_122793873

The thought processes of the conspiratorial mind.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122794197#Comment_122794197

The question would be how much usable DNA would they be able to recover? And why didn't they sooner?

If there was blood that was clearly dripping from standing above her, it'll be a rather straight matter. Who else would be standing above her, if not the murderer. This would also mean that the murderer was injured.

And suppose this turns out to be Bailey's blood? Even worse considering the legth the police went to try to pin it on him.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122794224#Comment_122794224

The possible singular mindset could only have been that some of the lower ranking Guards were possibly corrupt and into something illegal, like drugs and Sophie saw something or gotten wind of something into this direction. Not impossible to think so. Also point D and A are possibilities.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122795077#Comment_122795077

And suppose this turns out to be Bailey's blood? Even worse considering the legth the police went to try to pin it on him.

If it is Bailey's blood then we will finally have actual evidence against him because up until now there has been absolutely nothing to warrant the targeting against him.

The possible singular mindset could only have been that some of the lower ranking Guards were possibly corrupt and into something illegal, like drugs and Sophie saw something or gotten wind of something into this direction. Not impossible to think so. Also point D and A are possibilities.

I'd recommend reading Mick Clifford's book on the Una Lynskey murder and how the gardai targeted three innocent youths despite knowing that the evidence they had including detailed witness statements did not support their groupthink.

jesuisjuste

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122795154#Comment_122795154

I don't think Harbison thought it was necessarily the perpetrators blood as such, more likely that the perpetrator got covered enough in Sophie's blood that it was dripping off them and onto her while she was laying flat. These days though that can be enough to capture some of their DNA (not necessarily their blood though) on a profile

PolicemanFox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122794252#Comment_122794252

No, that statement was dated 02/04/1999, 2 1/2 years afterwards.

The first statement she made referring to Ian Bailey was on 22/5/1997 six months after the events. In this statement she wasn't specific where she met Bailey and Jules only that it was "on out towards the road intersections". Therefore the Gardai went back to her to get another statement in 1999.
Even by May 1997, Bailey was notorious as the suspect who had gone to the scene, so she would have understood what the Gardai wanted in the statement.

jesuisjuste

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122795394#Comment_122795394

That makes a lot more sense, thanks for the follow up.

As an aside do you know what she is referring to as "the caravan"?

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122794252#Comment_122794252

It's shocking that the Gardai allowed Shirley drive her car away from the murder scene at 2.20pm, a few hours after the body was discovered. She was the person who discovered the body and Shirley and Alfie were the only known persons in the vicinity of the crime - no way that car should have been allowed leave the scene.

Also as a woman I find it strange that Shirley was happy to drive off alone given that there was a murderer on the loose. Given her female neighbour was murdered violently and she discovered the body she should have been shook up and petrified. She must have been a hell of a tough lady to be able to continue with her day.

PolicemanFox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122795420#Comment_122795420

There was a caravan parked halfway down the lane at the time. I don't know who, if anyone lived in it at the time. I don't know if the Gardai checked it out either.

tibruit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122795394#Comment_122795394

Both statements imply the same thing. The caravan was on the laneway that led to the intersection. Its clear from her first statement where she met him. You work overtime to create confusion where there is none. I hope they`re paying you enough to buy that lawnmower.

PolicemanFox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122795465#Comment_122795465

It is shocking on many levels. Why did the Gardai move it down the lane at all? It should not have been touched until the forensics turned up. Alfie and Shirley should have immediately been put in a hotel somewhere and the whole area swept with a fingertip search.

Incidently the fact that Ian Bailey and Jules Thomas thought Shirley Foster drove past the body after the Gardai arrives proves that Bailey was not at the scene in the morning, as some have claimed. The detail that Shirley Foster drove past the body before she stopped was not made public until many years later.

Bailey always maintained this is one of the reasons the Gardai latched on to him, because he pointed out from the beginning how badly the Gardai were managing the scene, destroying the potential of forensic analysis.

Day Lewin

What grinds my gears is the fact that by driving to and fro, Shirley Foster drove OVER any tyre tracks (however faint) that may have been left at the scene - by the killer. Or indeed by anyone else. Obliterating one of the few possible forensic clues.

Unless it was her own car, of course.

PolicemanFox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122795675#Comment_122795675

Oh really? Where is the mention of the caravan in the statement from 1997, which as I pointed out was already six months later when memories were not? "Towards the intersection" suggests a lot closer to Kealfadda than her later statement. It is also possible to see a car on the lane 100m back from the junction. So it is possible both are right. Bailey could have seen her from the junction and passed her on the lane.

The point is moot. Bailey knew the victim was "possibly French", Eddie Cassidy, despite his protestations, must have known the victim was French. Read the DPP's report, he breaks this down in logical clarity. It was announced over the radio she was French 20 minutes before Ian Bailey and Jules Thomas arrived. Both Bailey and Thomas knew Alfie had a French neighbour and mentioned this in their early statements before the arrests.

Shirley Foster's 1999 statement was taken before the DPP demolished the Garda theory that Bailey drove to the scene before he could have known the victim was French. Bailey had also been given directions by Eddie Cassidy, enough to know it was on a turnoff from Kealfadda road. The first turnoff, coming from Bailey's takes you to the scene. It is all entirely plausible for Bailey to take that turn whether he saw Shirley Foster coming down the lane or not.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122795642#Comment_122795642

This aerial view dated 1996-2000, what appears to be the caravan is opposite where a new house has been built.

In fact it is just visible in the same place on Google street-view dated 2009.

Their accounts differ, and Shirley is as likely to have mis-remembered after 2 1/2 years as Bailey, and even if they met on Kealfada road one of them would have had to pull in to let the other pass. One other thing, I always assumed Shirley would have turned right onto Kealfada road and go to Schull via Toormore. But it's actually shorter to turn left and go via the studio and Prarie cottage.

Day Lewin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122795830#Comment_122795830

Didn't Bailey know Alfie Lyons' address quite well? He had done gardening work for Alfie, and seen Sophie pointed out at a garden party. He did know exactly where to go, quite naturally, nothing odd or sinister about that, at all.

PolicemanFox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122792772#Comment_122792772

Oh so a 12km round trip hike at 1:30am in the dark is normal is it? A hike to a house where a woman was asleep and then instead of overpowering the petite woman and raping her, he beats to death. Then he goes home and acts like nothing has happened, because his plan is for the Gardai to accuse him without evidence so he can get rich by suing them later. Man what a plan.

https://youtu.be/5bBQe0W5rQo?si=hTa17QKPDNIMMp2J

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122795852#Comment_122795852

But why was he saying he was on his way to Toormore Post Office to see if he could get information there?

tibruit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122795843#Comment_122795843

Shirley mis remembered nothing and was consistent from the beginning. It is clear in her first statement that she met Bailey somewhere along the laneway before she got to Kealfada road. She just gave a more precise account of exactly where on the laneway later. The more pertinent question is why Bailey didn`t want to acknowledge that.

tibruit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122795830#Comment_122795830

Illogical conclusions drawn from your own suppositions that are contradicted by witness testimony. Just out of interest, who said Cassidy gave Bailey directions to the scene?

chicorytip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122795874#Comment_122795874

Oh, for Bailey, that kind of thing would be quite in character. He was well known for rambling around in the wee small hours sometimes, it has been said, clad only in his underpants.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122795989#Comment_122795989

"The more pertinent question is why Bailey didn`t want to acknowledge that."

He does,

Bailey's statement says he met Shirley on the road into Drinane off the Dunmanus-Toormore road. The only road into Drinane is the boreen ( the cul de sac). The Dunmanus-Toormore road is Kealfada.

Day Lewin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122795882#Comment_122795882

Because in these little country towns, the postmistress knows everything that happens before anyone else does. She also knows where everyone is!

Used to be so, in villages! Probably all different nowadays.

PolicemanFox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122796066#Comment_122796066

"It has been said" - yes that is the sum total of the evidence against Ian Bailey - rumour and speculation. 30 years of Garda investigation, thousands of witness statements, an estimated State expenditure exceeding €10 Million and all we have is rumour and speculation.

Witches have been burned on more evidence than this.

PolicemanFox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122796030#Comment_122796030

Good grief. Eddie Cassidy told Bailey to go to the scene. He had to give him directions - and you call me illogical?

Just so you can see this is fully based on "witness testimony" here is the first memo Cassidy made (Cassidy's memory is not quite accurate, but he told Bailey to go to the scene and told him where it was):

Memo of Interview with Eddie Cassidy, Journalist, on 8th January 1997 at Dunmanway, Co. Cork. D/Gardai Culligan and Harrington.

At 12.20p.m. on 23rd December 1996 Eddie Cassidy said he telephoned Bantry Garda Station about another matter. He was told that Supt. Twomey had gone to Schull to investigate a serious incident. He telephoned Schull and spoke to Supt. Twomey. He telephoned the Cork Office and arranged to have Dan Lenihan, photographer pick him up at his home in Clonakilty to travel to scene. He telephoned Ian Bailey at 1.15 or 1.20p.m.. Bailey said he knew nothing about the incident at that time. He asked Bailey to go to the scene to get as much information as he could. Eddie Cassidy had earlier phoned Dermot Sheehan, Auctioneer, Goleen who was able to tell him where the scene was. He related this to Bailey. He travelled to scene with Dan Lenihan. At about 4p.m. Ian Bailey arrived at the scene with Mike Browne, Photographer. Bailey offered him a roll of film of scene but he declined to take it. Mike Browne took this film. Both himself and Dan Lenihan called to the
Post Office in Toormore to get information on the victim before returning to Cork. Eddie Cassidy said that he was aware of Bailey’s existence for the last six years and his paper, The Examiner, had used him from time to time during that period. Bailey called to Eddie Cassidy on St. Stephen’s Day. He had a house rented there with his family for the Christmas period. Bailey told Mrs Cassidy that he was living in Schull for 64 moons. She asked Eddie to take him out of the house and bring him up town.

SIGNED: Denis Harrington, D/Garda.

SIGNED: J.P. Culligan, D/Garda.

DATE: 8th January 1997.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122795154#Comment_122795154

I think back then it's entirely possible that the local Garda didn't even know how to preserve a murder scene, not even knowing much about DNA. Also the Garda operated the way that they thought they could bring in a couple of suspects, interrogate them, sweat them, tempt them, have ways of making them talk, in hopes one confesses. Gestapo or Stasi methods, one would think, except violence wasn't used as a means.

The problem is, that nobody talked, nobody confessed, and they had nothing on anyone. Then they were desperate, coercing a witness, giving drugs to transients, all more than unprofessional, - it's a crime of it's own.

This would be totally different today, in Ireland as every else in the Western world.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122795465#Comment_122795465

I don't know how often Shirley drove by the murder site. She drove to the garbage dump, she probably went shopping as well and came and went? Or did she have to park the car further down, and walk back and forth to her house via the fields? Alfie would have been also "boxed in" as there is only one way in and out to their house.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122796654#Comment_122796654

It appears Alfie and Shirley were not at all 'boxed in' as you put it. Shirley was allowed leave.

Shirley acted like she found a dead cat on the road, not her neighbour and just continued as normal with her day. Alfie appeared to not give a **** about his partner and let her make the (essential?) trip into town alone with a murderer on the loose - while not indicative of him being a murderer it does show he wasn't a gentleman.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122796654#Comment_122796654

Shirley drove by the murder site once, when she discovered the body. She left the car where she stopped it and went back up via Sophie's front lawn and around the back of Sophie's house to her own house. Sometime around noon, when the cordon was moved further out the lane, a Garda drove Shirley's car out beyond the cordon and parked it by the iron gate in the picture below. Around 2:15 Shirley walked down to her car "through a nighbour's field" The bags for the dump, also in the photo below, were taken out of her car and she drove on into Schull for shopping. When she returned she had to leave her car outside the cordon and make her way back through the field to her house. The car remained there for several days. I believe from that point on both Alfie and Shirley were confined to their house until the Gardaí were finished. The photo was posted by @bjsc back in March which she says is a crime scene photo taken on Tue 24th Dec of Leo Bolger making his way up through the field to tend his horses. Probably the same route Shirley had to take. "The neighbour's field" in question was actually Sophie's own field, she owned land on both sides of the road down by that iron gate.

rubbish bags.jpg

Baz Richardson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122787548#Comment_122787548

What would you call cutting pages from a record of an investigation then?

Day Lewin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122797086#Comment_122797086

Thanks for posting this, I was quite mistaken in thinking that Shirley had driven over the crime scene more than once. Thanks for clarifying the point!

Maybe the Guards did manage to preserve what few traces there were, of tyre marks.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122797135#Comment_122797135

"Maybe the Guards did manage to preserve what few traces there were, of tyre marks."

I don't know so much,

Here's a crime scene photo taken in the main bedroom and a red car can be seen through the window parked down by the gate;

red car.jpg

Another photo while the hire car is still there and detctives seen searching in the field, shows a blue or black car parked up beside the hire car;

blue car.jpg

PolicemanFox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122798112#Comment_122798112

By the time the forensic techs got around to photographing Sophie's car, a garda car had already driven up and parked beside it. The stupidity of this is unbelieveable.

You can see where the garda car turned in the mud.

Those ruts behind Sophie's house were not present in one of the first photos. You can just see the blue car tail light on the left.

There are no clear photos from the muddy area behind the house, before the gardai ruined it turning their car.

Here is one taken possible on the evening of the 23rd, it's not great, but you can see the tyre tracks were not there:

Staggering incompetence.

chooseusername

Looking at the photos there, does anyone know where this one was taken? The gate with the labels is in the background.

There must have been something significant there for forensics to photograph it;

briars.jpg

Mackinac

The fencing in that last post looks very hastily put up? Maybe it’s just me but I can’t see Sophie being happy with how it looks, it also looks like her house is literally fenced in - did she ask for it to be like that?

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122798279#Comment_122798279

Presumably cattle or other livestock were frequently grazing the long acre and it was needed to keep them out from the front garden. However, it may be that there wasn't the depth of soil there to sink the posts firmly.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122792882#Comment_122792882

." Alfie had a cut hand that was bandaged in the aftermath. Explained as a dog bite."

alfiehand.jpg

Seth Brundle

Is there a statement where Alfie (or someone else) describes it as a dog bite (unlike the cause mentioned in Sgt Walsh's statement).

Also, as I understand it, Shirley mentioned something about dog sitting that night - is this correct? Wasn't there an issue between Alfie & Shirley and the Hellens over A & S's dog(s) worrying livestock?

PolicemanFox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122799037#Comment_122799037

There is no statement, memo or news article, that I have seen where Alfie said he was bitten by a dog or was reported to have been bitten. As far as I can see it is a myth.

EDIT. Yes, Alfie and Shirley were given a dog a few days before but the dog wasn't settling and it was taken away on Saturday. There is a statement from the person who took the dog back.

Gussie Scrotch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122799101#Comment_122799101

I still find it curious that a fifty year old wound required a bandage.

Day Lewin

What age was Alfie Lyons at this time?

Elderly, feeble and frail. Maybe 80 plus?

And anyone can curl up their hand, or hold it in a twisted position.

But the lack of recent wounding is persuasive, I think. Getting scratched by brambles or clawed by a victim would probably leave long, deep scrapes.

PolicemanFox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122799170#Comment_122799170

The Gardai looked at it. Here is D/Garda Liam Leahy's statement about it.

Statement of D/Garda W.A. Leahy of An Garda Siochana, Bandon made on 7.11 .97.

I hereby declare that this statement is true to the best of my knowledge and belief and that I make it knowing that if it is tendered in evidence I will be liable to prosecution if I state in it anything which I know to be false or do not believe to be true.

I am a member of the Detective Branch attached to Bandon Station. 1 was one of a number of members involved in the investigation of the Murder of Sophie Du Plantier in Schull on the 23.12.96. During the early days of the investigation people coming close to the scene were invited to try and establish Sophie's last movements and if they heard or saw anything on the night of the 22/23/12/96. Along with D/Sgt. Walsh I visited her closest neighbour Alfie and Shirley Lyons of Dunmanus East, Schull. I recorded a written statement from Alfie Lyons. During my conversation with Alfie Lyons I noticed that he had an old discoloured bandage on one of his hands. D/Sergeant Walsh asked him what had happened to it and he immediately unwrapped the bandage and I could see what looked like a small bone or lump of flesh protruding out at his wrist. It certainly looked as if it was there for years. Alfie Lyons explained that as a young fellow he was skating on ice and that he fell. At the time he was wearing gloves and he fell on the fastener of the glove and it punctured his wrist and that he did not look after it. He mentioned that if he was doing manual work or in cold weather that it would irritate him and that is why he was wearing the bandage. I have read over the above statement and it is correct.

Signed: W.A. Leahy.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122799241#Comment_122799241

Alfie was only in his early 60s not 80s at the time of the murder. He appeared in a french documentary on the murder and didn't look frail or feeble to me. I understand though that he was supposed to suffer with chest issues.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122799275#Comment_122799275

I would hope that the Gardai looked into Alfie's medical history to confirm his old injury flare ups. If he didn't seek medical help for this flare up then it's as suspicious as Bailey's scratches.

Gussie Scrotch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122799275#Comment_122799275

Nevertheless, still somewhat questionable, given the circumstances.

Is there any record of a medically qualified person supporting Garda Leahy's opinion?

jesuisjuste

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122795843#Comment_122795843

Wild, I hadn’t heard this before. I presume it was empty, or was there a witness there? Who owned the caravan?

tibruit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122796571#Comment_122796571

Perhaps your comprehension is poor but you are coming across as a very disingenuous individual. Anyway, you have provided nothing to suggest that Cassidy gave Bailey directions. That is all supposition on your part because Cassidy`s accounts of when he rang people on the day is all muddled. Furthermore as far as I`m aware, Bailey never said that he went to the scene because Cassidy told him where to go. It was because Cassidy had told him the woman was French and he knew that a French woman had a holiday home next door to Alf Lyons.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122800154#Comment_122800154

Cassidy " A French woman has been murdered, get yourself over there"

Bailey " I'm on my way"

jesuisjuste

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122798176#Comment_122798176

looks like it was photographing along the line of where the arrow is looking back toward the scene. Is the white barrier tape presumably the cordon area? If so the cordon was placed beyond where the photo is taken. Although I’m not sure if I have seen any evidence spoken about from outside the gate itself?

tibruit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122800234#Comment_122800234

Obviously it was somewhere local. There is a big difference between that and "scoot on down the road and take the first right" which is what Policeman Fox is suggesting. Cassidy hadn`t a clue where exactly Bailey lived.

almostover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122798995#Comment_122798995

New information to me! Thanks for sharing. I don't think Alfie had anything to do with it personally, was trying to make the point that the Gardai didn't exactly do a stellar job preserving the crime scene. Another poster had pointed out where they rutted they area turning their own car. Surely approaching on foot would have made it easier not to disturb evidence?

Ms Robini

I think the theory is overkill on foot of sexual rejection, there being those who completely reject that theory and those who view the evidence as supporting it. If he had been motivated to go to the house by sexual attraction, if he was spurned or ‘told where to go’, the theory is he was angered to the point of rage at having been rejected, which led to the beating to death of the woman who rejected him.

Ms Robini

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122795465#Comment_122795465

Or she was in total shock.