Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed. **Threadbans lifted - see OP**

rightmove

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122838725#Comment_122838725

So what might Alfies involvement be. I know you were interested that it could be more than ne person so just seeing what you think as you have followed this more than i have.

PolicemanFox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122838547#Comment_122838547

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122838725#Comment_122838725

Yes but we are talking about real people, although Alfie passed away in 2021, he has family and Shirley is still around. I think his and Shirley's accounts of the scene should be interpreted as a faithful descriptions of the events as they saw it and nothing more.

In this country, people have a right to be presumed innocent. I don't think people in this forum take this right seriously enough, both those who believe Bailey did it and those who want to discuss other names.

I disagree that Alfie had a "plausible motive" at least I haven't heard one. Yes, weird things do happen in the world but just because say some insane person stabbed another over a parking space once does not make it any less weird. If you want to make up a extraordinary scenario, you need good evidence that this weird thing happened.

The injury he had was looked at by 2 Gardai who agreed it was an old injury. The description given by one Garda makes it clear.

So the only evidence is that they lived next door and found the body and heard nothing before. So why did they hear nothing? Some people, especially elderly people, can sleep through a lot, others can't. Alfie said the glass conservatory which covered almost the whole south face of his house at the time, muffled and deadened all the sounds from that direction. That seems reasonable to me. What was their hearing like? In your 60s 1 in 3 people have hearing loss. I can't see this as suspicious in itself.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122839565#Comment_122839565

The theory would be that Alfie having a drug habit and was growing cannabis or storing other drugs or trafficing drugs and Sophie saw something she shouldn't have. The theory is also fuelled further by Alfie having a connection with Leo Bolger, also a drug backgrund.

But again, it's just a theory, one of many.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122839603#Comment_122839603

Yes, Alfie, along with all the other suspects, are innocent until proven guily beyond reasonable doubt in a court of law.

His background as a drug user always brings up the drug theory. And then the police tried to construct a case and coerce a witness to having seen Bailey way further from the muderder site, whilst Alfie and Shirley were way way closer the whole night.

Gussie Scrotch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122839603#Comment_122839603

Again,

I'm not accusing Alfie or Shirley.

I'm simply comparing the facts supporting the Bailey theory vs another. Maybe I can be clearer if I say that if the Gardai felt that the facts pointed in Bailey's direction, then why not consider a person who knew her, had some issues with her and was present at the scene of the crime, to be at least as, if not more worthy of suspicion? Instead of someone who had no known connection?

Why weren't AL and SF simultaeneously arrested and Shirley pressurised in the way that Jules was?

The purpose of my advancing this alternative theory is not to accuse anyone, but to illustrate the weakness of the case against IB and to question the approach of the investigators.

Gussie Scrotch

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122839603#Comment_122839603

Also, PF, I forgot to include the main part of my question: You believe the evidence against AL is less that that against IB. Notwithstanding your point regarding avoidence of accusations - which I accept - on a purely academic level……by what measure or observation is this so?

rightmove

Also there is some evidence that Alfie didnt like STDP
None that Bailey even met her

PolicemanFox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122839763#Comment_122839763

Bailey had a history of violence and he knew of the victim, had possibly been introduced to her. These two facts in isolation made him a suspect. Even Bailey himself said so in his interview with Pat Kenny three days after he was arrested. Only a handful of people on the Mizen knew she existed.

It is not surprising Alfie knew she existed. He had no known history of violence. I don't think he was ever seriously considered as a suspect. The people who were suspects had hair samples taken a few days after the post mortem. Alfie and Shirley were not among them.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122839603#Comment_122839603

"So why did they hear nothing? Some people, especially elderly people, can sleep through a lot, others can't. "

Alfie said

 I would have got up a few times during the night to go to the toilet. I am definite that I heard or saw nothing during Sunday night Monday morning. On Monday morning I would have got up between 6 and 7a.m. 

He read for a while after the film, so nearly midnight and up and about 6 or 6 1/2 later, after being up a few times to the toilet, 2 hours before Shirley got up. What was he doing for the 2 hours? The floorplan of Alfie's house was on the internet when the house was sold in 2021, but I can't find it now. Where was their bedroom and toilet? Shirley headed off alone to the dump with 5 or 6 bags of rubbish, why didn't he accompany her? It's not as though he had cows to milk or animals to feed.

Shirley came back up from the gate "She was shaking and screaming saying there is a dead woman by the gate call the Police. " How was he able to establish from 20 yards that she she was partly clad and had been murdered?  According to Shirley's statement. after the guard told her it was Sophie by the gate and after she spoke to the Gardaí about the outside light, she said "Alfie pointed out to me, a stain on the back door" this implies they were by Sophie's back door. I'm not surprised some are questioning Alfie's account.

I don't think Alfie had a part in Sophie's murder per se, either on his own or with someone else. He would not have allowed Shirley to be the one to find the body. But he might have heard a racket and suspected something had gone on down by the gate, but it's hard to believe he would let Shirley be the one to find out.

PolicemanFox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122839931#Comment_122839931

That is simply untrue. Two people gave sworn statements that Alfie introduced them. Justice Kevin Moran ruled that on the balance of probability, (i.e. >50%) Alfie Lyons did introduce them. That's evidence. Now I think there are issues with this evidence, it is not 100%, it is not beyond reasonable doubt. There is doubt. Justice Moran also accepted Bailey's evidence that he did not know her beyond this "casual introduction". But this is evidence, none the less. I don't know of any hard evidence that Alfie didn't like Sophie. There is no statement to that effect. It's possible. But this is nothing, most people (I would say nearly all) have some neighbour they find annoying, but how many people are going to murder that person. This is not motive.

jesuisjuste

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122840592#Comment_122840592

FWIW he said she was a “pain in the hole” according to someone on here, which holds a much weight as any hearsay evidence in this case, of which much is discussed ad naseum on here.

In addition Alfie did speak out against Bailey, at trial, and to the press, and contributed to his losing the case, which if you believe Bailey didn’t do it, requires explanation. Alfie knew exactly how those gardai were acting too, these things are related, not independent unfortunately. A wiser man would have sat back and said nothing……

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122839710#Comment_122839710

These are all excellent points. They could have brought in Shirley, sweated and grilled her like Jules in hopes she would betray Alfie and confess that he did it. But they didn't, - they took Jules instead. Most likely the answer is that the police wanted to frame Bailey.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122840592#Comment_122840592

Introduction or casual knowledge of a person would never be evidence for murder in any way.

I don't know why there is so much emphasis on who introduced whom, and would be "90% sure"?

And even if just an annoying neighbour would have been the motive, I'd suggest Sophie was far too few times at her cottage anyway. 3 weeks in total any given year and around 1 week every time. It'll be a rather unrealistic motive if the argument was about a gate left open or kept closed?

PolicemanFox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122840707#Comment_122840707

That's a perfect example of a rumour. A person who went to a party once and mis remembered the year it occurred says something on an anonymous internet forum.

Where did Alfie "speak out" against Bailey? He was questioned by Gardai who specifically asked him about Bailey because Bailey said he knew he (Alfie) had a French neighbour. He later was questioned in court, under subpoena and he was consistent. How can you call that "speaking out"?!

jesuisjuste

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122840980#Comment_122840980

He spoke the side of the gardai and press in a case against Bailey, that contributed to Bailey losing the case and being furthert vilified by that same press. Would you do the same thing under that scenario?

These people aren’t mindless robots, they have agency in the decisions they make, and the information they provide. Alfie was by the book, supportive of the narrative against Bailey, when speaking to the press who were pushing that narrative, or the court, but supportive nonetheless. His associate Leo Bolger even more so.

PolicemanFox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122841044#Comment_122841044

No he didn't.

When you get a subpoena you don't have a choice. You must go to court and you must tell the truth.

He was subpoenaed to appear in court. He was asked questions which he was obliged to answer as truthfully as he could and his answers matched his statement in 1997.

That is not taking a side. That's not pushing a narrative.

Show us where he pushed a narrative. He had a memory that he introduced her to Bailey but he wasn't 100% sure. He was completely consistent. If anything this shows a committment to the truth. He recognized the possible fallability of his own memory.