All Blacks v Ireland part II - July 9 8.05am Ireland time

Mr Clever

Ireland go again. Looks like more free money with NZ at -15 on the handicap

Mr Clever

When will team be announced ?

Akrasia

Worst match preview thread ever

Dave_The_Sheep

Oh I dunno about that. Venjur puts a lot of effort into his match thread openers being ****, I'd hate for him to be outdone by this minimalist shitposting bullshit.

(Venjur, I love your threads, this is a joke)

Mr Clever

Sexton passed fit to play. Whitelock out for NZ

Jump_In_Jack

Squad Update Monday

Ireland will get a few more bodies back on the pitch this week, with Rob Herring and Harry Byrne both expected to take a full part in training and Mack Hansen having completed his isolation period for Covid-19.

Ed Byrne and Stuart McCloskey are both fresh off the plane, the latter replacing his Ulster team-mate James Hume who has unfortunately returned home with a groin injury.

Ireland captain Jonathan Sexton, who came off during the first half of the opening Test, will complete the HIA process today (latest update was that he has passed it), but front rowers Jeremy Loughman and Dave Heffernan are both confirmed criteria one concussions and will follow the 12-day return-to-play protocols.

After withdrawing from the matchday squad due to Covid, prop Finlay Bealham will be available to train later this week once his period of isolation is complete.

SaoPaulo41

Jordan and Goodhue both available

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119291981#Comment_119291981

David Havili too.

TRC10

I hope they stick with O'Toole on the bench over Bealham. He finished the season very strongly and I think he's gone well on this tour so far and we'll gain more in the long-term by sticking with him.

Still can't fathom why Ed Byrne was called out over Wycherley. Byrne is 29 and has been nothing more than a squad depth URC player for his entire career. Wycherley is 23 and starting European knockouts.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119298089#Comment_119298089

I've seen multiple people say it now, but the timing of Ed Byrne's call out was when they knew they were without Loughman and thought they might be without Healy too, so they were looking for someone to parachute straight into a match squad potentially. Byrne most likely got the call down to the fact he had the most experience of being in the camp compared to Wycherley or Warwick, and therefore would be the quickest up to speed with calls and systems etc.

On Wycherley, he will likely get his chance. He's far from a finished product though, and that European knock out game you mention he started in was one where the Munster scrum conceded multiple penalties to Toulouse.

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119298340#Comment_119298340

The whole point of this tour is testing guys under pressure. Yes it would have been tough for Wycherley, but that's the whole point. Calling out Ed Byrne is very short sighted and him starting v the Mãori would be a massive waste. He's never been a test quality player and never will be. Wycherley as least has the potential to be. Not to mention he's been playing at a much higher level than Byrne of late .

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119298359#Comment_119298359

Yeah, I generally agree with you here, and I think if it had been a matter of picking a squad before they'd left Ireland, Wycherley probably would have been ahead of Byrne. But the scenario they were working under was one where the player might have jumped off a plane straight into a match squad. Such a scenario I think goes beyond "testing" him, and is closer to actually setting him up to fail.

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119298340#Comment_119298340

Has anyone been around senior squads and knows what this entails? What kind of thing would a LH prop need to be up to speed on specifically with relation to the Irish team as opposed to their provincial side? Would whatever that is not have significantly changed since the last time Ed Byrne was with Ireland anyway?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119298545#Comment_119298545

Obviously the big three would be the line out calls, scrum calls and then the defensive systems. On top of that, players will be expected to slot into the attacking systems the team is using; patterns/pods etc, when you're expected to be there to clear a ruck, when to hold positioning anticipating an attack down a channel a couple of phases time etc.

While the calls will evolve and change slightly all the time, the core systems are in place and one player having had familiarity with them from a training camp before is obviously a big advantage over one who hasn't.

I've no idea how the Irish ones differ from the Munster ones, but it would certainly seem that Ireland aspire to play a very different brand of rugby from Munster.

In general anyway, why do people believe there is some grand conspiracy here against non-Leinster players? Or why would Andy Farrell have any perceived bias towards Leinster players?

If anything, he briefly spent time in the Munster coaching set up back in 2016, and has no specific links to Leinster.

Is it not plausible that he is in a better place to judge this, and has a better notion of what he's looking for?

Former Former Former

If starting for Munster didn't get Wycherley picked ahead of Loughman, there's no reason to think it should get him picked ahead of Byrne.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119298545#Comment_119298545

Lineouts and lifting would come to mind particularly. Also the defensive systems. Do you think props only role is the scrum?

theVersatile

Positioning/roles off multiphase moves would be another obvious one. I imagine Byrne would be somewhat familiar with the patterns used.

Shehal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119298089#Comment_119298089

When Irish fans question why we don't have young options well its selections like this that are the reason why.

Shehal

My team

1 Porter

2 Sheehan

3 Furlong

4 Beirne

5 Ryan

6 O'Mahony

7 VDF

8 Conan

9 JGP

10 Sexton

11 Lowe

12 Aki

13 Henshaw

14 Larmour

15 Keenan

16 Herring 17 Healy 18 O'Toole 19 Baird 20 Doris 21 Murray 22 Carbery 23 Ringrose

Shehal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119298340#Comment_119298340

Right so Wycherley was the only reason Munster concede a boatload of penalties at scrum time. This is exactly the issue was have in Irish rugby, we wait for one of these young players to make a mistake and when they do we hold it against them forever no matter any of the good stuff they do (even though I've yet to see the evidence that Wycherley was directly responsible for those penalties, and never the less if thats the case why has his front row partner at Munster been called up when he also was part of that pack?)

Also with all due respect if you aren't picking Wycherley for the penalties he's conceded at the scrum why the hell is penalty machine in chief Ed Byrne bene called up?

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119298359#Comment_119298359

The whole point of the tour is to test guys in pressurised environments while also giving them the tools they need to be successful in that examination. Putting a guy in who knows a sum total of none of the calls and none of the structure while giving him absolutely no time to learn them or train with the squad is putting him under the wrong type of pressure and all but ensuring that he’ll fail. That’s not a good thing.

Honestly, this stuff isn’t some grand mystery that people can’t be expected to figure out. It’s pretty basic. Test teams don’t just meet up in the car park before games and figure it out on the pitch.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119300032#Comment_119300032

I didn't specifically say Wycherley was the reason for all of those penalties, merely stated a fact that he was part of a scrum that was demolished. Stephen Archer was the main culprit, but Wycherley struggled that day in the tight.

The comment was in response to a specific comment about Wycherley starting European Cup games; if that's going to be held up in his favour then it should be rightly pointed out that he struggled in the scrum that day, a point noted in the Rugby Pass (https://www.rugbypass.com/news/munster-player-ratings-vs-toulouse-champions-cup-quarter-final/), Limerick Post (https://www.limerickpost.ie/2022/05/10/player-ratings-omahony-and-odonoghue-shine-as-munster-narrowly-lose-out-in-european-quarter-final/) and Irish Examiner player ratings of the game (https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/arid-40867538.html).

I've clearly made the argument above for why I believe they called Byrne out there instead of Wycherley. If you can't be bothered to read it, that's your business.

Former Former Former

The very same people would be slating Farrell if they threw Wycherley in and he had a nightmare.

Shehal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119300123#Comment_119300123

Except if that was the case why have 3 other members of that same scrum been called up to the Irish squad, Are they held to a lower standard? Did he struggle or is he just another convenient scapegoat? You are holding him to a redicilously high standard if you expect him to hold up a scrum all by himself especially against a monster pack like the Toulouse pack.

Reading into those rating it seems Wycherley is just being labelled as a convenient scape goat because he's young, how do we know it was his fault or Archer? They both need to be working in tandem for the scrum to function.

Except the your reasoning is nonsense, there is no logic for not picking Wycherley for conceding scrum pens and then selecting Ed Byrne who's as bad as anyone in this department.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119300198#Comment_119300198

This is my last time engaging with your repeated nonsense.

Wycherley had a poor game in the scrum against Toulouse. The whole pack struggled, but a number of penalties were specifically on him. That's a fact.

We know a penalty is on him, when the referee calls out the Munster loose head as the culprit when he's awarding the penalty.

The reason I gave, once again, if you'd bothered to read the thread, was that they called up Byrne specifically because they thought it was a scenario where potentially both Loughman and Healy were out of the tour, and they needed to call someone up to potentially just hop off a plane and straight into a match day squad, with virtually no time to train, no time to get to know the other squad members, familiarise yourself with scrum & lineout calls, defensive systems, attacking shapes etc. Byrne likely got the call in this instance because he had previously been part of the squad, and therefore, making the best of a bad situation, would be quicker to jump in if required.

I'm all for backing young players when they show they're ready, and wouldn't have objected to Wycherley being brought on this tour from the starrt, but calling him out late and potentially straight into a test team in the situation the management thought they might be doing would do him absolutely no favours whatsoever, it would be likelier to see him exposed badly, and shatter his confidence.

Andy Farrell, Simon Easterby, Paul O'Connell and John Fogarty know these players better than you or I, so I'm going to trust their judgment in this scenario, while you carry on with your conspiracies.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119300198#Comment_119300198

Ed Byrne has experience. I'd say that was what mattered. Ed is not up to the requirements needed

Shehal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119300239#Comment_119300239

You do a great job at spewing nonsense yourself I must say. If the whole pack struggled the whole pack shouldnt have been selected, which penalties were these?

Well that reasoning is dumb, picking a player who's a journeyman and wont go much further and wasting a cap or two and vital experience on them and not a young player who would gain so much more from it is just such an Irish selection, you would never see France do this in a similar situation, they would back Wycherley for the reasons I said.

There is nothing Wycherley will ever do in a CC or URC game to show he is ready, the only way we will ever know they are ready is when they line out for their country. The key point is you need to be willing to make that selection call and in Ireland unfortaunely we just dont have that in our culture, we just prefer the safe option that's least likely to embarrass us rather than the option that is most likely to be successful, that the difference between RWC winners and losers like ourselves.

And he'll learn from the experience and come back stronger like good players tend to do.

Good and ill hold all 4 of them to scrutiny come the RWC, that's where they will be judged based on these conservative selection calls.

Shehal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119300242#Comment_119300242

Experience of what? Being a penalty machine? Because that's not what we need right now. It doesnt matter how much experience they have if the player is bloody mediocre, again such an Irish selection call.

irelandrover

Wycherley had a poor game in the scrum against Toulouse. The whole pack struggled, but a number of penalties were specifically on him. That's a fact.

Just on this. I seem to remember him getting his ass handed to him in the first two scrums but then sorting it out. I thought how he sorted it was impressive.

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119299928#Comment_119299928

No but it seems odd to me that Ireland's lineout calls and defensive systems have not changed since the last time Ed Byrne was with the squad. It seems like that would make it too easy for the opposition to analyse and know what we're planning to do.

leakyboots

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119300764#Comment_119300764

He did similar against Clermont away in his first start in Europe.

Think this season will be the one where he solidifies his hold on the red jersey

TheRona

Hansen the only change for Ireland. Not surprising that Johnny is back to start.

NZ reshuffle due to Whitelock being out, with Papalii coming onto blindside flank.

RAKM

Is there radio coverage of this game anywhere?

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119302084#Comment_119302084

Nobody is saying they haven’t changed. But some familiarity with the set-up is better than none at all. Some calls may have remain the same, but what definitely has is the structure they are trying to play to etc.

Former Former Former

Hmmm. A couple of players lucky to keep their spots I think but there's an argument to be made for continuity. On paper it's still the best XV we can field but really need to see an improved performance this week.

salmocab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119302134#Comment_119302134

2fm had it last week

RAKM

I only asked re radio coverage as the radio schedule on RTE website has no mention on R1 1Extra or 2FM. Was able to watch on TV last week.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119302220#Comment_119302220

Yea. Doris in particular really needs a big performance this week. Genuinely struggling to see how he has maintained his spot when you look at the available alternatives, unless he has been told this is his last chance to try provoke a reaction from him.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119302084#Comment_119302084

They may have changed somewhat but being given information on what those changes are. Or being given information in abstract are two different things. I would imagine it’s far easier for Ed Byrne to be sent information to study while traveling. To add to what he already knows of the systems. Than it would be for Whycherly or Warrick to try learn it all from scratch. With no one there to help them. Systems change and adapt. They don’t get thrown out the window and start again.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119302347#Comment_119302347

Or alternatively, he’s doing what’s being asked of him and we are not seeing it. Not the first time that’s happened with a backrow.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119302394#Comment_119302394

Unless he's being asked to do nothing I doubt this is the case.

His unseen work is so unseen that it doesn't exist.

swiwi_

A lot of talk about SB vs POM but Sexton trundles out again after being forced to retire with concussion. The NZ camp seems quite surprised that he is allowed to play.

clsmooth

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119302510#Comment_119302510

When did Whitelock get his concussion? And was it flagged at all during the game?

ionadnapokot

It's a bad day for rugby (& for Sexton) to see him get selected. I sincerely mean that.

Ireland have undermined the HIA protocol with Loughman & are now exploiting the protocol with Sexton... of all people.

Since Chermann stood him down for 12 weeks in 2014 I can think of at least 6 subsequent concussions.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119302493#Comment_119302493

That's ridiculously over the top. He didn't play well last week (when only about 3 Irish players did play well), but wasn't so noticeably worse than a lot of what was around him to justify this level of comment either.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119302220#Comment_119302220

What's one of the definitions of madness... keep doing the same thing and expect different result. I suppose a second chance is in order, but?

CONSI

Sexton is our best 10 there is no doubt of that, but we are again running the risk of going into a world cup with a backup 10 who doesnt play in big games. This was a massive opportunity to play Carberry, nobody would have looked sideways if they sat Sexton out. Think Coombes derserved a bench spot at least

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119302562#Comment_119302562

Well, you either follow the protocol or you don't. Whether they're "exploiting" it depends on your own perspective.

He'd have been eligible to play under the old system too.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119302657#Comment_119302657

Yeah, can't argue with either of those points. The Sexton decision just looks wrong.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119302567#Comment_119302567

He wasn't noticeably worse because he did nothing to notice!

I don't know what it up with him, maybe it's fatigue. But he was totally anonymous for Leinster against the Bulls as well.