Mass Protest in the Netherlands by Farmers.

straight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119338343#Comment_119338343

Incorrect again. Scale has very little to do with it.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119338556#Comment_119338556

That's quite the statement

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119337475#Comment_119337475

Bulk animal feeds aren't down at all in my local merchants today........unless I'm being done.......

And what will grain off the combine be this harvest with the increaesd cost of diesel/fertiliser to establish yhis years crops....

road_high

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119335962#Comment_119335962

Christ you know nothing about pesticide use if this is the kind of amateur dribble you’re spouting - “breathing pesticide fumes” dear Christ.

This is the problem with agricultural policy today- too many hysterics with zero clue what they’re talking about driving insane policies that are driving rapid food prices increases and potential future famines

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119339544#Comment_119339544

I mean bulk as in by by 100s/1000s of tons.

conorhal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119337945#Comment_119337945

I also get the feeling that this is why the EU globalists hate farmers so much.

The don't like nations to be self sufficient, the EU project is dependent on inter-dependence, it's rather hard to leave if the food/money/oil can be turned off by a third party (a hard lesson the EU is currently grappling with itself).

Also, think of all that land 'going to waste' in the hands of people rather than corporations, hoarded by 'traditionalists' or (the horror) those of a more nationalistic persuasion. Certiantly farmers that have lived on the same plot of land for generations are not a diverse and multicultural group which is rather problematic....

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119339929#Comment_119339929

Everything is a chain now. If you are old enough you would remember more DIY and hardware stores than just Woodies DIY (which happens to be in the UK and also in Australia where it is 'Bunnings'). You would also remember more independent shops in the cities and towns. If you were urban/suburban you might remember the cornershops.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/old-goldmine-corner-shops-now-facing-the-chop-1.903777

ttps://www.independent.ie/irish-news/death-of-the-small-town-local-shop-26190592.html

Those are just the obvious examples. There are loads of diagrams online of how a few companies are umbrella groups for multiple large companies who also own more smaller companies etc etc.

https://www.businessinsider.com/companies-control-everything-we-buy-2017-8

All part of the accumulation of wealth into fewer hands. Enough wealth to fund endless NGOs to try and shape social policy.

If you want to take a cynical view then its possible that farming is being targeted. I don`t know if thats the case but I do know that anything that increases oligopolies and takes land from local control is a bad thing.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119338455#Comment_119338455

I'm not ignoring anything nor am I debating the disadvantages of organic fertiliser. It certainly has disadvantages but pertinent to Sri Lanka it has one glaring advantage, they can produce it.

It's very simple, Sri Lanka cannot afford any fertiliser. Let that sink in. Imagine if they had an alternative that they could actually produce themselves and more importantly know how to use.

Guess who are not effected by this current crisis? The 10% of farmers who were not dependant on foreign chemicals.

The reality is one way or another they will be forced to diversify and reduce their dependency on imported chemicals, not because of green ideology but because they can't afford it.

By not embracing at least partial self sufficiency they are just going to remain poor engaged in a cycle of misery fuelled by fluctuating foreign markets and climate change.

That actually suits certain countries, but that's a different debate.

Podge_irl

This is as much a result of consumer demand for lower prices as anything else though.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119339593#Comment_119339593

Spraying weed killer on crops close to a residential holding is a health risk , " mist drift " whereby a small breeze can carry toxic fumes is where the threat is

Downplay it all you want ,il happily defend farming in other ways

road_high

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119340016#Comment_119340016

Lol- it really isn’t. It’s only a “health risk” if sprayed incorrectly etc- this is the kind of paranoia unfortunately that has us headed where we are. You really don’t understand the rigorous registration process if you think “toxic” fumes are a thing. Such a substance wouldn’t pass the regs these days.

Agrochemicals are probably one of the greatest technical advances of the 20th century and one of the main reasons we have access to such abundant cheap food. People have never lived longer partly as a result.

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119339816#Comment_119339816

Fair enough....that's not much good to most farmers unless its reflected in the price....how long before it filters down because my input costs are still sky high.

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119339995#Comment_119339995

For someone that supposedly could care less about organic farming your spending a lot of time and effort pushing it as an answer to the present food shortages and low yields from agricultural export commodities in Sri Lanka. So what is this alternative you want me to imagine that they could produce themselves and know how to use that would solve that ?

You now mention this 10% of farmers not affected by the current crisis as the did not import chemicals. I can only assume that you are referring to farmers who were growing organically, so what were their crop yields. Greater than the data from Sri Lanka`s own Agricultural Research Center that over 22 consecutive growing seasons the yield from rice, (which for Sri Lanka a staple food and was self sufficient in until the disastrous organic experiment), was anywhere between 21.5% and 33% lower ?

Simple questions, but answering questions does not seem to be your forte.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119340901#Comment_119340901

Again, they can't afford to import fertiliser.

You seem to be leaving that pertinent fact out.

No fertiliser of any description = zero yields.

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119341019#Comment_119341019

Yet again no answers to what you were asked. Perhaps this time it was my phrasing of the two questions that you had difficulty with, so I`ll make it simpler

What is this alternative you wish me to imagine that they could produce themselves that would solve their problems ?

This 10% of farmers you mention that were not affected by the current crisis due to not using chemicals, what was their crop yield and was it different to that of Sri Lanka`s Agricultural Research Institute that over 22 consecutive seasons found that using organic fertilisers reduced yield by 21.5% - 33%.?

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119341171#Comment_119341171

This 10% of farmers you mention that were not affected by the current crisis due to not using chemicals, what was their crop yield and was it different to that of Sri Lanka`s Agricultural Research Institute that over 22 consecutive seasons found that using organic fertilisers reduced yield by 21.5% - 33%.?

80% > 0%

Thinkingaboutit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119327113#Comment_119327113

Yes, the Dutch agri sector is very innovative. It can be relied upon for the animal welfare regs to be enforced there. Anyhow, I cannot see the possible sense in destroying a successful and efficient economic sector in a country at a time when the food shortages outside Europe and the rest of the affluent West threaten outside those places where food supply is fragile or actively sabotaged (parts of Yemen via KSA blockade). Poorly stocked shelves for agri food produce have been seen in the Netherlands. If there is market demand, production will just move to producers like Brazil where there are far fewer regulations and much cheaper inputs and none of the senseless threats like legislatively sectoral shrinkage faced in Europe. Something comparable has happened with offshoring production of light consumer goods, for some decades to PRC and now Vietnam (now with more energy intensive production, inshoring or nearshoring back to the US or Mexico is popular given relatively low energy costs supported by local production of same).

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119340716#Comment_119340716

This I do not know, but I assume it follows similar dynamics to e.g. pump prices. It follows but more slowly (my knowledge is from working in biofuels so not sure of the dynamics at "retail" level). But there has been a massive, massive reduction in price over the last few weeks.

I appreciate farmers work on low profit margins - ultimately you would think the extra cost of these protocols should be shouldered by supermarkets and consumers but the consolidation and price wars there make that difficult.

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119342071#Comment_119342071

Was that compared to their yield the previous year using the same method of not using chemicals, or the yield of the same crop when compared to a crop conventionally grown ?

Still no answer to this alternative you wished me to imagine that they could produce themselves that would solve their problems. I`m not being pedantic, but it`s difficult to imagine when you won`t say what this alternative is.

Marcos

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119339964#Comment_119339964

Oh that's a real rabbit hole to jump down through. Look at who are the major shareholders in these groups the same names keep on popping up. State Street, Vanguard, Blackrock, Berkshire Hathaway, Geode Capital management, Charles Schwab Investment Management etc here's the main institutional investors in Pepsico and it's main competitor Coca Cola. If you don't see it automatically scroll down to see the list of institutional investors. It's similar for the likes of Kellogs and Mondelez among others. This information is publicly available on the likes of Yahoo Finance and CNN Money.

But that's only food production, look at BP and Shell and the other major energy companies making out like bandits. Then see who owns the major media that controls the news cycle and you'll see the same names cropping up, so is it any wonder that we don't see reports on these protests, the same way we'd be guaranteed to see them if similar protests were happening in Russia right now?

Thelonious Monk

Is the problem not that there is way too much nitrogen and ammonium all over the Netherlands now that is wrecking all of the soil and environment in general? Surely they can't carry on as is if it's damaging their land so much?

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119342251#Comment_119342251

Their yield was the same as previous years I imagine. I don't really see your point.

The country is now effectively bankrupt, it cannot afford fertiliser. Why won't you acknowledge that rather important fact?

Let me put it to you this way, if you were a farmer in Sri Lanka with a family to feed right now would you rather be part of the 90% or the 10%?

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119342356#Comment_119342356

The point was simple enough. From farming organically was their yield down compared to the previous year by that margin, or is that the margin historically it has been down compared to the yield of the same crop grown by conventional means. If it is the margin historically then that 20% is the lower end of the margin when compared to the records of Sri Lanka`s own Agricultural Research Institute over 22 consecutive seasons which were 21.5% - 33% lower. The 0% tbh sounds like someones wishful thinking.

What you do not seem to realise is that to be able to afford fertiliser and make a profit overall, farmers need a surplus over what the require as food for themselves and their families to sell. Drops in yields of the magnitude of that from the Agriculture Research Institute using organic methods is not going to make that possible. Neither will it in the case of Ceylon tea, one of the country`s main exports.

You appeared to have a solution to that with an alternative that you wished me to imagine they could produce themselves that would solve the problem, but despite being asked a number of times now not a dicky bird. Why is that ?

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119342533#Comment_119342533

Nope. In Sri Lanka, the chemical fertiliser was distributed as a subsidy. The government ran out of money and couldn't afford it anymore.

At some point you will have to acknowledge that reality.

But if you could answer the question below I assure you the penny will someway drop with you because you are just constantly repeating yourself without acknowledging the very bleak reality of the situation in Sri Lanka.

Let me put it to you this way, if you were a farmer in Sri Lanka with a family to feed right now would you rather be part of the 90% or the 10%?

In your own time, I hate to reduce debate to yes or no, but either will suffice in relation to that question.

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119342314#Comment_119342314

Yes it is.....but who pushed that

Who wants more "efficiency"

More volume produced, tighter profit margins etc etc

And now doesn't give two **** if smaller family farms go out of business

The larger factory operations will probably be able to live with it

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119342548#Comment_119342548

You appear to believe that Sri Lanka`s government providing subsidies for growing food is somehow unique to Sri Lanka. Far from it. The EU have been doing it for eons under EAFDR as have the US and many others.

What is it you find so difficult to get that regardless of whether the government provides chemical fertilisers by way of subsidies or farmers buy them directly, the crop yields will be as low, if not lower, next year as they have been this year and while that may leave farmers with enough of a particular food to feed themselves, it will leave the rest of the population requiring importation of such staple foods as rice that they were self sufficient in until now. It will also leave farmers with no profit to buy any other necessities It will also reduce earnings from agricultural commodities they export such as tea which accounts for 17% of exports and was worth $1.27B in 2020. But then you had an alternative that they could produce themselves that would solve all that, so why the refusal to divulge it. Are you thinking of patenting it or something similar ?

Your 10% of organic growers is a complete irrelevance unless you are claiming that 10% somehow increased their crop yields and filled the shortage gap. They are even more of an irrelevance in that for the other 90% to fill that shortage gap farming like that 10% is going to require somewhere between 21.5% - 33% more acreage planted. Let the penny on that drop with all it`s implications, and then if it`s not under patent or a state secret, maybe let me know what this mysterious alternative they could produce themselves that would negate all that.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119340108#Comment_119340108

Oh please, there have been multi billion dollar class action lawsuits against Monsanto in America for illness caused by pesticides, they are almost banned outright in Germany at this stage

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119343155#Comment_119343155

Again and for the last time, they can't afford fertiliser.

At the minute they are borrowing from China and India to buy back their fertiliser at hyper inflated prices.

It's the complete opposite of "self sufficient".

It's nothing to do with green ideology, it's basic maths. It is utterly amazing you keep ignoring that reality.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119330312#Comment_119330312

The end result is to move agriculture outside of Europe, to places like Russia Brazil etc where there are no health, environmental regulations etc.

They will be very successful in that.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119344603#Comment_119344603

Actually, I think the desired result is that we change the way we live so farming is more sustainable.