Mass Protest in the Netherlands by Farmers.

Thelonious Monk

Is the problem not that there is way too much nitrogen and ammonium all over the Netherlands now that is wrecking all of the soil and environment in general? Surely they can't carry on as is if it's damaging their land so much?

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119342251#Comment_119342251

Their yield was the same as previous years I imagine. I don't really see your point.

The country is now effectively bankrupt, it cannot afford fertiliser. Why won't you acknowledge that rather important fact?

Let me put it to you this way, if you were a farmer in Sri Lanka with a family to feed right now would you rather be part of the 90% or the 10%?

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119342356#Comment_119342356

The point was simple enough. From farming organically was their yield down compared to the previous year by that margin, or is that the margin historically it has been down compared to the yield of the same crop grown by conventional means. If it is the margin historically then that 20% is the lower end of the margin when compared to the records of Sri Lanka`s own Agricultural Research Institute over 22 consecutive seasons which were 21.5% - 33% lower. The 0% tbh sounds like someones wishful thinking.

What you do not seem to realise is that to be able to afford fertiliser and make a profit overall, farmers need a surplus over what the require as food for themselves and their families to sell. Drops in yields of the magnitude of that from the Agriculture Research Institute using organic methods is not going to make that possible. Neither will it in the case of Ceylon tea, one of the country`s main exports.

You appeared to have a solution to that with an alternative that you wished me to imagine they could produce themselves that would solve the problem, but despite being asked a number of times now not a dicky bird. Why is that ?

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119342533#Comment_119342533

Nope. In Sri Lanka, the chemical fertiliser was distributed as a subsidy. The government ran out of money and couldn't afford it anymore.

At some point you will have to acknowledge that reality.

But if you could answer the question below I assure you the penny will someway drop with you because you are just constantly repeating yourself without acknowledging the very bleak reality of the situation in Sri Lanka.

Let me put it to you this way, if you were a farmer in Sri Lanka with a family to feed right now would you rather be part of the 90% or the 10%?

In your own time, I hate to reduce debate to yes or no, but either will suffice in relation to that question.

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119342314#Comment_119342314

Yes it is.....but who pushed that

Who wants more "efficiency"

More volume produced, tighter profit margins etc etc

And now doesn't give two **** if smaller family farms go out of business

The larger factory operations will probably be able to live with it

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119342548#Comment_119342548

You appear to believe that Sri Lanka`s government providing subsidies for growing food is somehow unique to Sri Lanka. Far from it. The EU have been doing it for eons under EAFDR as have the US and many others.

What is it you find so difficult to get that regardless of whether the government provides chemical fertilisers by way of subsidies or farmers buy them directly, the crop yields will be as low, if not lower, next year as they have been this year and while that may leave farmers with enough of a particular food to feed themselves, it will leave the rest of the population requiring importation of such staple foods as rice that they were self sufficient in until now. It will also leave farmers with no profit to buy any other necessities It will also reduce earnings from agricultural commodities they export such as tea which accounts for 17% of exports and was worth $1.27B in 2020. But then you had an alternative that they could produce themselves that would solve all that, so why the refusal to divulge it. Are you thinking of patenting it or something similar ?

Your 10% of organic growers is a complete irrelevance unless you are claiming that 10% somehow increased their crop yields and filled the shortage gap. They are even more of an irrelevance in that for the other 90% to fill that shortage gap farming like that 10% is going to require somewhere between 21.5% - 33% more acreage planted. Let the penny on that drop with all it`s implications, and then if it`s not under patent or a state secret, maybe let me know what this mysterious alternative they could produce themselves that would negate all that.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119340108#Comment_119340108

Oh please, there have been multi billion dollar class action lawsuits against Monsanto in America for illness caused by pesticides, they are almost banned outright in Germany at this stage

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119343155#Comment_119343155

Again and for the last time, they can't afford fertiliser.

At the minute they are borrowing from China and India to buy back their fertiliser at hyper inflated prices.

It's the complete opposite of "self sufficient".

It's nothing to do with green ideology, it's basic maths. It is utterly amazing you keep ignoring that reality.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119330312#Comment_119330312

The end result is to move agriculture outside of Europe, to places like Russia Brazil etc where there are no health, environmental regulations etc.

They will be very successful in that.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119344603#Comment_119344603

Actually, I think the desired result is that we change the way we live so farming is more sustainable.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119344948#Comment_119344948

That won't be the outcome. Nearly all societies in Western Europe are committed to ever cheaper food.

People have no interest in agriculture surviving as economically sustainable in Europe. Especially small players.

Consumers do not put up when it comes to Organic or sustainable.

Russia for pork, grain, veg, Brazil for Beef, New Zealand for lamb.

That's how it will end up and no one will want them to regulate or be sustainable.

The refusal of the govt to end below cost selling was just the latest in showing how little interest there is in sustainable farming or a viable agriculture sector in Europe.

Thelonious Monk

So if the current Dutch model is destroying their land, what is the solution? Producing less food? If they carry on as is maybe the land wont be able to produce anything eventually.

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119345089#Comment_119345089

You don't want them to produce anything in the first place

Thelonious Monk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119345121#Comment_119345121

More f*cking nonsense...

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119344517#Comment_119344517

Green ideology is no chemical fertilisers or pesticides, and the maths is really very simple.

Without chemical fertilisers the scientific research shows that Sri Lanka would need to plant anywhere between 21.5% and 33% more acreage to be self sufficient in staple foods and have a surplus to sell allowing them to buy other commodities.

At one stage you had an imaginary solution that they could produce themselves that would achieve that without the use of chemical fertilisers but when repeatedly asked what that solution is, nada.

Very much like green ideology in that regard. Lots of imaginary thinking, but no answers to practical problems.

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119344948#Comment_119344948

But is it sustainable to import food from places where slash and burn is the policy?

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119345462#Comment_119345462

If we change how we eat, E.g. less beef, this won’t be needed.

I’m going to go on a pro vegan lecture, but eating less meat is about the best thing we can do right now. Kills me to say it though.

It’s forecast to be over 30 in Ireland next week. Over 40 in the UK. People are fighting wild fires across Europe. This is not ok.

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119345639#Comment_119345639

I'm having a hard time believing that

Wouldn't drastically reducing the number of flights taken rank up there

Wouldn't educating women (and indeed men) in developing nations help reduce birth rates and population pressure

Wouldn't addressing the way countries are run with neverending growth (economically etc) being the goal...leading to increased consumption and waste be something to think about

If meat were cut out would that not result in land being repurposed and even more being taken for crops.....crops which will require pesticides to provide the kinds of yields required...........if we are talking about growing in a controlled environment/vertical farms etc...would that not consume huge amounts of electricity and water diverted from natural sources to provide the volume required

Like I said I'm finding it real hard to believe cutting out meat is the single best thing we can do......especially cutting production in the West, if we do that it will be supplied in a much more environmentally destructive way from Brazil........even if we do reduce demand won't that area being destroyed continue to be destroyed for palm oil plantations etc

All I can see is shooting ourselves in the foot even more and not solving the issue.

straight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119345639#Comment_119345639

Burning fossil fuels is the issue. Not farmers.

Vegans are just useful idiots filled up with propaganda from the billion dollar food industries.

SeanW

Veganism is not the answer. Many of the people telling us "we must do this, that and the third" are causing not just needless CO2 emissions and massive needless destruction of the natural world. By objecting to the use of nuclear energy (which has usually meant burning fossil fuels instead for electricity - 100% needlessly) and supporting the extermination of large birds (e.g. eagles) and bats to extinction by carpet bombing the countryside with windmills which are absolutely lethal to flying wildlife. Literally, windmills are more of an existential threat to bats than White Note Syndrome, which is itself an extinction-level threat.

Unless someone is willing to repudiate and oppose these insane policies, I don't care what else they favour or oppose.

Like Eamon Ryan who wants to simultaneously "re-wild" the countryside by introducing killer wolves while simultaneously carpet bombing it with windmills. Same for the vegan brigade. Your policies are contradictory, self-defeating and insane and I have no interest in changing my life according to them. Zero. Nada. Squat. Zip.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119345340#Comment_119345340

12th time. They cannot get or afford imported fertiliser.

That means 0% per acreage.

#maths

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119348182#Comment_119348182

So that`s the alternative you have that they could produce themselves to solve the problem, malnutrition and starvation ?

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119348505#Comment_119348505

That's actually your alternative.

The reality is they will have to decrease their dependence on a commodity they cannot produce. The exact thing I stated in my first post you responded to.

Plenty of published studies on how that can be achieved. Maybe the new governance may introduce a plan to get to food sovereignty, I wouldn't have much hope though. Hopefully I'm wrong.

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119348594#Comment_119348594

Not at all. I have shown you what the alternatives are from Sri Lanka`s own agricultural research studies over 22 growing seasons, and this has been borne out from this years crop yields.

You have been on about some alternative they could use themselves to change that, but when repeatedly asked what this alternative is you just keep ignoring. Now you come up with yet another vague reply about published studies on how it can be achieved. So what are these alternatives, either your own, or from these published studies ?

It really is a simple question and I cannot see why the constant evasion attempts to not answer.

dasdog

Love the Anti-EU gammon hate from the beneficiaries of the Common Agricultural Policy on this thread. One of the best life lessons I had was working on a farm in the Netherlands, everything grown in sand sprayed with fertiliser, planting tulips. Horrible work but we enjoyed the weekends. That's when you make decisions about ability or being a spa.

straight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119349182#Comment_119349182

Obviously you chose to be a spa. 😉

cezanne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119306849#Comment_119306849

I agree with you having worked in the food industry i have witnessed the intensive farming in person its cruel and horrible and to be honest if the green agenda reduces the wanton killing of young animals for consumption than it has achieved something IMHO. As to the beef form Brazill total mafia beef funding criminals. I met all the beef producers from around the world at various industry food shows the big one in Germany in Cologne. The handsome brazillians would cut your throat and there is no traceabiliy there.

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119349532#Comment_119349532

The EU imports 540 million worth of beef with poor or none existing traceability from the slash and burn merchants in Brazil and have it shipped half way around the world. The EU imports 845 million worth of beef from Ireland a member state.

The EU Commissioner for Agriculture was in town a few weeks ago and said the EU had no interest in cutting herd number, that their concern was food security. Yet the Irish Green Party want to cut our herd by at least 30%.

Am I missing something, or is this the contradictory madness it appears ?

Jonnyc135

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119338177#Comment_119338177

So true farmers are the real land custodians of the land, that has probably being passed down through generations.

Jonnyc135

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119346101#Comment_119346101

Here here well said, the vegan agenda is just astonishing people who know nothing about farming or food production making decisions and pushing agendas

Labaik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119345639#Comment_119345639

A few days of sunshine and its Armageddon. What about the other 340 odd days a year that its raining.

xxxxxxl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119346139#Comment_119346139

They think everyone produces meat via the USA model. Tonnes of water. Ireland does not.

xxxxxxl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119351660#Comment_119351660

They have that covered. Rain is due to climate change also. Fires in Aus.. Tones of plants there need fire to grow burst seed pods alike clear area for new growth. Problem is when you move houses into these areas not the fires. 2 odd hours from sydney you can go skiing ffs.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119351660#Comment_119351660

A few days of sunshine aren’t the problem. The rise in average global temperature is. Blind ignorance let’s you validate whatever opinion you want.

Labaik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119351916#Comment_119351916

Sorry but the earths temperature has risen every decade since the 1800's. One of the hottest years ever recorded in the U.S was in 1934.

Jonnyc135

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119351916#Comment_119351916

I would love to know your opinion on the following.

Myself and my father are part time farmers in the west of Ireland, non intensive farmers or beef finnishing store cattle and sheep production.

We have roughly 60 acres grassland, 80 acres forestry and 120 acres bogland of which is rich in sphagnum moss.

We have not got our land surveyed for carbon sequestration, but due to us being in reps scheme for years we planted all our fields with hedgerows, use little fertiliser as clover swards established using tight grazing with sheep, I know we are sequestering way more carbon than we are emitting, by using rough estimates from field studies. The forestry and sphagnum moss especially are huge carbon sinks but why on earth are we not allowed to claim credits for them, this is a joke, yet big buisness like Google and meta can blaken ireland with data centres buy up forestry land in Lietrim using shell companies and offset the credits against them and Ireland has no problem as it helps our 'GDP'. Farmers like me feel we are being sold out because of this.

We run an extremely sustainable farm and as do most farmers in Ireland especially if the farmers own bogland, so why are some people condemning our farm and saying we are destroying the environment when it's quite the opposite.

I would like to here your thoughts from a person who is on the opposite side of the fence.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119352595#Comment_119352595

I say fair play to you, why are you asking my opinion? I’m definitely not anti farmer.

I replied in this thread because I don’t think there’s a media cover up of the protests and I believe climate change is real and will force us to change how we live. We need to change, or we will have to change later.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119352212#Comment_119352212

I’m not going to argue climate science with you. It’s settled and real.

Marcos

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119350975#Comment_119350975

Just take a look at how much water almonds use in order to create their beloved almond milk.

https://www.mashed.com/225543/the-real-reason-almonds-are-destroying-california/

Jonnyc135

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119352621#Comment_119352621

Respect that climate change is a huge issue, but what are your thoughts on Irish famers like myself who are clearly a net carbon absorber not being able to claim carbon credits and in turn sell them at market value to more intensive famers in the dairy sector, instead of big multinational companies. If this was done it would really help the marginalized farmer in the West of Ireland and also help intensive farmers in the East offset their carbon emissions.

My thoughts are any carbon sequestered in the farming/agriculture/land areas and privately owned bogland showed be used only in the agricultural sector, and should not be sold to multinational companies. Our farmers in Ireland are the biggest private owners of bogland, forestry and agricultural land this carbon being sequestered should be used only for this sector.

What do you think, should a pro active regenerative farmer like myself and my father, who are farming are land down through generations, should we be allowed to claim our excess carbon credits and sell them to a more intensive dairy farmer that is a net emitter of carbon?, or should we be made forfeit them to big Energy consuming Multinationals in order to keep money flowing into Ireland and keep the 'GPD' gravy train going.

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119352629#Comment_119352629

I may not disagree on that

But you do think not eating meat is the single best thing we could do to mitigate?..........

I was having trouble with that given other human activities that produce carbon etc

Jonnyc135

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119352621#Comment_119352621

Would you eat Beef and Lamb produced on my sustainable farm, and would you pay a premium for it?

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119352965#Comment_119352965

I would absolutely. I pay extra for local organic pork and beef already.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119352863#Comment_119352863

I don't know enough about it. Why is this directed at me exactly?

Jonnyc135

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353368#Comment_119353368

Good to hear u would buy sustainably produced meat products.....not so much aimed at you but if farming is to more forward we need full scale conversations about carbon credits, the fact that people don't know shows the lack of engagement or 'want' to talk about it.

This is lack of conversation about carbon credits is purely down to big companies with the help of governments wanting to redirect these credits into their pockets this is what we should be talking about really.

This is why when I farm sustainably like my past generations, and I see a full scale attack on the farming community whilst secretly and quietly engaging with big corporate tax rich companies to steal carbon credits out of the agri sector its shameful, disgusting and wrong. Yet nobody is talking about it.

My point is there pitting us all against each other with nonsensical arguments over veganism and intensive farming, while really pulling all the strings by undermining the farmers and redirecting credits out of the agri sector towards big corporations - This is what infuriates me and makes me feel like my hard work means nothing because there just selling us out.

Definitely worth checking out the carbon credits and trading system, only companies allowed trade at the minute, but they will be worth big money down the line, that's why I'm afraid the top people know this.

smallbeef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353355#Comment_119353355

If you do buy local organic produce, you represent only about 2% of the world who 1- can afford to do so and 2- actually give a **** about what they are eating.

I wanted to farm organically and looked into the figures a few years back. The prices offered for organic produce are only marginally above conventional. I would be worse off going organic. This downward pressure on organic prices is because the consumer will choose the cheapest alternative 98% of the time. Governments the world over are being propped up by cheap food. Revolutions happen when people don't have enough to eat. Feed them plenty cheap crap food and beam Love Island into their TVs nightly and the population will stay nice and quiet.

The EU have decided to outsource food production to Russia, Brazil, USA and anywhere else food can be got CHEAPER than subsidizing EU farmers, because the public cannot be asked to pay higher prices - it WILL make the climate far worse, but it will reduce the EU's carbon figures, we are idiots for tolerating these accounting tricks. The greens can't see the wood from the trees and push these ideologies, but they are so far off mark it’s frightening. 'Dont Look Up' was a pretty crap film but it hit the nail on the head when depicting how governments/big business just think with greed and make things worse.

Veganism is a joke but big business are involved now so it will be shoved on everyone, it will increase the pace of the planets resource depletion. The world will be too dependent on a few monocrops that are detrimental to soil health. Fertilizer and pesticides will need to increase to compensate for nutrient depletion. A few decades down the line many of the plains responsible for human consumption wheat will be deserts. People are being brainwashed down the vegan route and this is our 'Dont Look Up’ moment.

The real answer is organic. Organic mixed farming is a completely sustainable model. Trouble is an organic world will only support about 3-4 billion people, so erm no business model wants that. There is no answer that allows infinite growth and prosperity from a finite pool of natural resources. Food needs to become expensive, and people need to be thought to only have kids if you have the resources to do so. The model of infinite growth targets propped up by cheap food and fossil fuels has us where we are today.

Jonnyc135

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119354137#Comment_119354137

Well said, all Economies want is the beloved GDP and growth at the detriment of everything else. Food has been way to cheap for far too long and I think things are about to change. You are so correct in terms of monocropping grains and plants for Vegan based foods. In fact this would lead to lower soil carbon and microbial life in the soil and in turn reduce its ability to sequester carbon.

xxxxxxl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119356386#Comment_119356386

Yeah we should let Africa starve then ? They have to get food from somewhere a lot of places in Africa do.

Jonnyc135

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119356682#Comment_119356682

I never said that, I said people in the western developed society will have to live with paying a lot more for food, instead of governments and the general society now with abundance of cheap food leaving disposable income that in turn chases and creates this sacred GDP.

conorhal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353550#Comment_119353550

I applaud your efforts and I too find it depressing that the one size fits all EU policies around emissions makes no differenciation between you (and many Irish producers) and the Dutch levels of intensive factory farming.

I don't know what the solution is to make sustainable farming more profitable, perhaps doing the added value part youself and processing the raw materials into high value products in house? A lot of farms have started their own cheese making businesses selling craft product. I hear it's actually hard to get cattle to slaughter locally but if it were possible selling your own cured meats or steaks locally would offer a substantial mark up on selling on the hoof.