Abuse of Referees

ShamoBuc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120533994#Comment_120533994

Regarding the quote - that's simply your opinion on it.

The refs are sick of the abuse - of course they are. And they are correct, as I'm sure are the refs in any other county. the difference as I see it, it the letter raises it above all other previous abuse - it was the straw that broke the camels back as it were. It tipped them over the edge.

The Chin issue? - I'm not privvy to the preceedings of the Guards or the County Boards in question on the issue. Have they said 'nothing to see here' or is there more speculation or an update somewhere?

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120534023#Comment_120534023

Why don't you follow the Chin issue? I've already updated the chin issue on this thread.

Did the refs go over the edge? How do you know they went over the edge?

ShamoBuc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120534037#Comment_120534037

I don't read all the threads and this one is about Abuse of Referees in fairness.

It tipped them over the edge from 'accepting' a level of Abuse to going on Strike - I would have thought that was obvious.

Anyway, it's fair to say there is interesting times ahead in Kilkenny and they might simply be the first county where refs are taking a stand. No harm at all I think. A similar thing happened in Soccer in Cork recently with Carrigaline Soccer club. A pity it ever got to the situation where they find themselves.

evolvingtipperary101

This has been described by a refereeing source contacted by Independent.ie as a "trigger" on the back of sustained abuse referees in the county say they have been getting.

The withdrawal of services over four days will impact a wide range of games#, from intermediate hurling league to junior football championship and an underage programme that includes Féile qualifiers.

The Kilkenny referees have made their stance in support of their colleague after last week's game but also for another referee who abandoned an intermediate football game recently because of excessive abuse.

The referees are also understood to be conscious of the national picture, too, with colleagues in other counties facing similar abuse and feel a stand has to be made.

The withdrawal of services for the next four days is "to highlight incidents of abuse directed at match officials in recent times."

Wexford GAA held a crisis meeting in their county last September after a number of incidents, including assaults on referees and even one case of online abuse that merited a six-month ban.

The outcome of that meeting was the requirement for all mentors/coaches involved with club teams from U-11 to adult to undergo workshops where self-evaluation of conduct towards match officials was made.

Any club that did not hold such a meeting would not have referees made available to them for their games until they did so.

Wexford also successfully brought a motion to Congress that lifted the 96-week maximum ban that the GAA can impose on a member, clearing the way for heavier penalties for those who physically abuse referees.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120533698#Comment_120533698

Just so we are clear then.

You accept that there has been escalation. You accept that this isn't just about a letter, but that it has "escalated" to this point.

But you seem intent on fighting tooth and nail the mere suggestion that the county board have anything to answer. That nothing more could have been done before now. That they did all they could throughout this escalation.

The OP said that a reasonable man would be happy with the county board, at the very same time that the damn refs are walking out on strike. Frankly that was a bizarre thing to say, but you are arguing his corner for some reason.

The level of disconnect on show here is strange.

ShamoBuc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120534107#Comment_120534107

Refs have always gotten Abuse, that's not news - not saying it's right of course, but it happens in every county every weekend. However it has Escalated because a Ref receives a letter containing Abuse etc that ( I presume) has not happened and is of course an Escalation.

My contention is not that the county Board is blameless or otherwise, moreover that I find it ridiculous to blame a county board but conceivably - they might not have done anything wrong.

The blame game seems to be that they are at fault - but I still have not heard what did they do that was wrong.

Did they refuse to meet with the refs?

Did they meet previously but did nothing?

Would they not cooperate with the Guards?

Have they been lenient on other abuse issues regarding refs or that club in the past and the refs felt they would do so again?

If they have done some of the above - then they are at fault and their actions Aided the escalation and the apparent disconnect between refs and the County Board.

But have they? I don't know but others seem very content on saying that they are Definitely at fault - doesn't mean they actually are though.

I'm not fighting someone elses corner, merely not sure why they Board are at fault when nobody has shown How they actually are.

Refs going on strike Automatically means the Board have done wrong - not necessarily.

It may be the case, but I've only seen speculation rather than instances of wrong doing.

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120534168#Comment_120534168

There has been rising levels of abuse.

County Board failed to tackle escalating abuse. Abuse gets worse and worse. When you don't prevent something as a custodian of the game, you're not doing your job.

Refs must go to media to drawn attention at a national level in the hope that County Board takes action and creates meaningful deterrents to prevent such abuse. Why because they haven't done anything to stop rising levels of abuse or take it seriously.

= County Board hasn't done anything about rising abuse levels - abuse got worse and worse. County boards hasn't acted in a proactive manner - and is currently still acting in a reactive rather proactive manner.

Not that hard to understand.

Irish Independent article =

This has been described by a refereeing source contacted by Independent.ie as a "trigger" on the back of sustained abuse referees in the county say they have been getting.

The Kilkenny referees have made their stance in support of their colleague after last week's game but also for another referee who abandoned an intermediate football game recently because of excessive abuse.

The referees are also understood to be conscious of the national picture, too, with colleagues in other counties facing similar abuse and feel a stand has to be made.

The withdrawal of services for the next four days is "to highlight incidents of abuse directed at match officials in recent times."

Wexford GAA held a crisis meeting in their county last September after a number of incidents, including assaults on referees and even one case of online abuse that merited a six-month ban.

The outcome of that meeting was the requirement for all mentors/coaches involved with club teams from U-11 to adult to undergo workshops where self-evaluation of conduct towards match officials was made.

Any club that did not hold such a meeting would not have referees made available to them for their games until they did so.

Wexford also successfully brought a motion to Congress that lifted the 96-week maximum ban that the GAA can impose on a member, clearing the way for heavier penalties for those who physically abuse referees.

ShamoBuc

County Board failed to tackle escalating abuse. Abuse gets worse and worse. When you don't prevent something as a custodian of the game, you're not doing your job.

Could the above not be said of seveal County Boards, all over the Country - maybe even the majority.

How many County Boards could the above Not be directed at that?

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120534265#Comment_120534265

How many county boards are involved in the current strike?

Why do you keep bringing up other county boards? What about the county boards on mars? Whataboutery.

ShamoBuc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120534289#Comment_120534289

Mars Really?

Outside of the letter - by 1 'fan' - Ref Abuse is everywhere unfortunately and what have they done that is so different to other county boards.

If the answer is nothing, then they are at fault and every county board in Ireland is wrong also - or rather only 1 letter away from being wrong.

Unless there is more to the story.

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120534311#Comment_120534311

But why deflect to other county boards on this particular Kilkenny issue prevalent in the news? So bizarre. Absolutely baffling.

ShamoBuc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120534404#Comment_120534404

What's baffling is blaming a county board outright when the only prevalent difference between all county boards appears to be a letter sent by 1 fan.

ShamoBuc

I'm happy to leave it there - until some actual facts, rather than simple opinion and speculation, emerge that will add to the story.

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120534448#Comment_120534448

This is a narrative you've created that's completely at odds with the complexities of the situation.

Several times it's been pointed out that recently a ref was hounded so badly at a football match in kilkenny he had to end the game. Why wasn't strong action taken by the county board after that?

This is all part of a steady escalation of abuse that has forced the refs hands to say enough is enough. A complete strike on fifty games.

It's not just one letter. The county board would love you to believe it's just one letter that's with the gardai now. It's a culture that needs changing.

This is an issue with Kilkenny refs and a culture of abuse. It's not just one letter. You're misrepresenting the issue.

And when the other issues arise in other counties as they have arisen they'll be dealt with too.

There's far more to this. But you won't let that little idea go despite it being one small facet. And you're willfully neglecting all the other points outlined. It's embarrassing.

Stop trying to overpower the thread with questions and one point. It simply won't work.

Larbre34

Look at it all logically.

This is not an isolated incident. There are recorded incidents of direct abuse, assault and off-field intimidation of match officials at all age grades, in all codes, and most likely in every County.

This cowardly letter in Kilkenny may not be better or worse than any other incidents people care to mention, but that's irrelevant because it is, on it's own, quite legitimately a straw to break the camel's back. And the Kilkenny refs group choosing it as such, is absolutely understandable.

Why are County Boards partially to blame? Because County Boards are local agents of the GAA at national level. Policies and rules for this sort of stuff are universal, only levels of tolerance and interpretation vary.

And so, if this stuff is happening quite commonly, as we know it is, then the whole GAA and all County Boards are failing. And so the protest of this failure by the ones on the receiving end; officials and sometimes coaches and other volunteers, will only escalate until that failure is turned around, with swift, merciless and permanent action.

Anything at the level of this letter or racial abuse from the sideline or from opposing teams, should be a lifetime ban. Lifetime. No probation, no reconsideration. Banned from all GAA activities forever.

Clubs and Counties from where offenders come should be fined. Those fines should be a percentage of revenues, so a small rural Club won't feel the impact any more or less than a big County with 500,000+ through the gates every year.

If someone like this letter writer or a racial abuser or a physical attacker understands that not only will they face criminal prosecution for their actions, and get a record, but that they will never get past the gate of a GAA venue again and that their Club or County will suffer for THEIR criminal behaviour and that they will be named and shamed publicly for all of the above.

Threaten or abuse someone in a volunteer sport? End your life as you have known it.

Zero tolerance, crippling punishment, problem soon evaporates.

Charlie69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120534477#Comment_120534477

So what you’re saying is nobody else is allowed an opinion on this….it’s agree with you or nothing…. Pathetic.

Mad about baa baas

I would say the vast majority of people shout things in the heat of a game to a ref that are unsavoury.. as others have said there is a difference between saying ah come on ref are you blind and swearing and being personal.

I would also assume that the vast majority of the time once the final whistle is blown people calm down and move on.. following refs to a car or the cowardly sending of an anonymous letter is absolutely uncalled for and thankfully uncommon..I do think refs get the same treatment countrywide and it's not specific to any one county unfortunately..

It is a shame when a tiny minority can affect the vast majority..

Regarding the letter itself.. It strikes me as having been written by someone who is not highly intelligent. It is inexcusable though and I hope he gets a suitable punishment

greenspurs

Theres two issues here in this instance.

People are getting caught up in the letter, and quite rightly so.

this is a disgusting escalation of referee intimidation and abuse, and now that it is in the national spotlight its been taken care of by the Gardai. (?)

So people can blame/not blame county board in relation to that, but its a rare (?) occurance for a ref to recieve a letter of abuse and threats.

But the second issue, that is being largely sidelined (excuse the pun) is the intimidation from the sideline that happened, the following out to the car afterwards that happened. That kind of blagarding the county board is fully aware of , and has anyone ever been punished?

So the Co Board is culpable on that count, because that does happen quite often !

I know a couple of (camoige) refs and they have said to me in the past that heading north of Kilkenny is like the wild west.

I know that myself from being involved in teams over the years, so im not surprised that it happened where it did.

The county board is well aware of what goes on with their refs while they are on duty , but they appear to not care much.

As was said on this thread from the start, they do not look after the refs as regards mentoring/training/seminars etc.

(refs in kilkenny got a free ticket to the Inter hurling final in Nowlan Pk last year for their service of officiating at 100's of games during the year!)

YabaDabaDooley

It's a bad letter for sure but definately not an isolated one. I'd imagine a lot of referee's have got similiar letters before. And a lot of players too. Didn't Bubbles O Dwyer say he got a few disgusting letters after missing the last gasp free v Kilkenny in 2014 final. There's a lot of morons out there like that Tipp lad shouting racist abuse at Lee Chin. It's great that modern technology caught him out maybe it's not as easy to catch out the old pen and letter but hopefully the exposure this is getting will make similiar arseholes think twice about spreading their bile in future.

lawrencesummers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120533609#Comment_120533609

When the referees feel the need to withdraw their services then its clear that something is lacking on the part of the county board, be it protection, mechanisms of complaint, sanctions against offenders, work at changing the culture or any other number of things.

I dont know enough about the situations to say which it is, but when employees are going on strike the employer has done something, or not done something they should have.

Whats missing here from the referees in kilkenny is communication about what they want to happen going forward, this may have been relayed privately but for something public like this and the stance they are taking they should make it clear what they want or it will lead to more abuse.

lawrencesummers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120534499#Comment_120534499

While i agree, there had been a 48 week ban leveled agains the racist who abused Lee Chin.

If racial abuse gets 48 weeks do you really think people calling a ref names are going to get anymore than that?

lawrencesummers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120534786#Comment_120534786

I would say the vast majority of people dont shout unsavory things at the ref tbh, but there is always one around you who does and the vast majority of people think that clown is a clown.

With regards the letter i think its up to the GAA to impose a sanction because i cant see it going past a very well publicized arrest and a quiet release without charge, or the usual can kicking exercise of a file being sent to the DPP from the gardai considering there is no actual threat to harm the person contained in it, saying you know where someone lives isnt the same as saying you will harm them, and unsavory as hoping someone dies of a disease isnt the same as saying you will be the one doing the killing. Its a horrible thing to do but i dont think it will meet the level required to be charged.

Mad about baa baas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120535085#Comment_120535085

You are probably right, perhaps I phrased it wrong..I was more thinking of the grumbling and moaning we do amongst ourselves.,most of which I'd imagine the ref is oblivious too..with the occasional lad being heard all over the pitch..the following to cars and letters is a completely different end of the spectrum though

blackbox

It has to start with the players at senior level.

What happens to a rugby player (not the captain) who argues with the referee, never mind going as far as abusing him?

All the GAA needs is the will to change and it's definitely not there yet.

evolvingtipperary101

Members of Naomh Fionnbarra and Clanna Gael Fontenoy have been handed suspensions after an Under-18 hurling league game between the two sides was abandoned following the alleged assault of an umpire.

The two teams involved in a game that was abandoned in Dublin in early March, after the alleged assault on an umpire will be back in action again this weekend.

RTÉ Sport understands that two members of Naomh Fionnbarra have received 48-week bans from Dublin county board. Another member of the Cabra club had his 48-week suspension reduced to 12 weeks upon appeal.

Another individual has been barred from all GAA activity for a total of 96 weeks, while Naomh Fionnbarra were handed a a significant fine by officials in Parnell Park.

Ringsend-based club Clanna Gael Fontenoy were also sanctioned. One of their members received an eight-week ban, and a smaller fine was also imposed on Clanna Gael Fontenoy by the county board.

The league game on 5 March made national headlines when the referee abandoned the game in the second half after an alleged assault on an umpire. A man was treated for his injuries at the scene and Gardaí were called to the match venue, Sean Moore Park.

Naomh Fionnbarra are scheduled to play Lucan Sarsfields in their home ground, John Paul II park, this weekend.

Clanna Gael's next outing will be against Kilmacud Crokes.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120536522#Comment_120536522

You cant do like rugby and only have captain talking to ref. It isnt same because of way both sports are played.

There does need to be a will to change and yes it has to start at senior level.

Realt Dearg Sec

This technically isn't about abuse of refs but did anyone see the footage of an u14 match in cork doing the rounds? Disgraceful scenes and one or two adults in there with a serious case to answer for their behaviour. Wouldn't give you much hope for developing a culture of respect when that craic is being tolerated. One club significantly worse than the other from the footage I've seen but it's a general blight on the game and to see it at a level where they're only barely out of gogames would make you sick.

Gusser09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120571375#Comment_120571375

Looks as if one club has members of a certain community involved. Say no more. That young lad who cowardly kicked the other chap after the row had died down should get a serious ban too. At 14 youre old enough to know thats not on

big_drive

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120572064#Comment_120572064

Ya it had stopped until he went again and kicked. His father didn't exactly hold him back either. The kick was horrible to watch

Gusser09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120573899#Comment_120573899

Yep. Thats all those lads know though is fighting and rowing.